General Honda F1 Topic

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
McMika98
7
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:40 pm

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by McMika98 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:49 pm

Juzh wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:20 pm

Force india had nearly identical speed on the straight as mercedes (1-2 kph down).

You can't compare quali to FP. There's a high chance a car would get some kind of slipstream at some point durring practice, but not during qualifying.
Ok stop this hypothetical gibberish. Why not take Mclaren as an example, so the renault engine is now 60 hp less? Top speed means nothing, lets compare the lap times cause thats what it is all about. Toro Rosso did similar lap times to Force India so where do you think they have the edge cause it aint the compromised chassis which was way behind FI last year.

Juzh
242
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:45 am

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by Juzh » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:08 pm

McMika98 wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:49 pm
Juzh wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:20 pm

Force india had nearly identical speed on the straight as mercedes (1-2 kph down).

You can't compare quali to FP. There's a high chance a car would get some kind of slipstream at some point durring practice, but not during qualifying.
Ok stop this hypothetical gibberish. Why not take Mclaren as an example, so the renault engine is now 60 hp less? Top speed means nothing, lets compare the lap times cause thats what it is all about. Toro Rosso did similar lap times to Force India so where do you think they have the edge cause it aint the compromised chassis which was way behind FI last year.
If what I've said is gibberish for you than there's nothing to discuss here :)

McMika98
7
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:40 pm

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by McMika98 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:34 pm

Every hp figures banded around is gibberish and thats that. So no point to discuss rightly.

GhostF1
95
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:11 am

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by GhostF1 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:15 am

Juzh wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:20 pm
techman wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:03 pm
most of it is down to chassis. the toro rosso chassis is not even close mercedes neither it is efficient. a good example wll be williams? thats right williams mercedes even slower than toro rosso.
Force india had nearly identical speed on the straight as mercedes (1-2 kph down).
techman wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:09 pm
The funny thing is gasly with old aero and old spec had a better top speed than his qualy time in friday practice i believe it was 320kph in the straight and much faster than hartly who was running the new aero with new spec2. goes to show something is not right with the new aero expecially the new front wing. they need to test both specs properly without just putting it in the car and thinking it will go faster.
You can't compare quali to FP. There's a high chance a car would get some kind of slipstream at some point durring practice, but not during qualifying.
Force India is always high on the top speed charts. A lot of the time higher than Merc. Their chassis principles have always favoured relentless speed on straights. This is a known thing. But regardless, top speed, although easy to say is the measure of the power unit, having direct drag races is a little more telling, and even then only a little.

GhostF1
95
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:11 am

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by GhostF1 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:21 am

Juzh wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:37 pm
Engine performance vs mercedes. As you can see Honda is still quite some way off merc's 2.1 PU. 10 kph difference at the line at sub 300 kph speeds would mean at least 40 bhp deficit.

https://youtu.be/gOn_Sz35n7I
It's ain interesting watch actually.

Starting the lap, then turns 1, 2 and 3.. all have long straights leading up to them. Start line, Turn 1 and 2 the STR is down 9kph in all of them, turn 3 that's lessened to only 6kph, then skipping through the middle sector, we have the second last corner that has a bit of a straight leading up to it, the speed difference has lessened again to 5kph, and then crossing the finish line, also about 5kph.
Obviously there's also a bit of driver involvement, chassis aero and energy management strategy etc that contributes to those measurements but, the second half of the lap the Honda is not worlds apart at all, the deficit average is 5kph.
What is a mystery and will always be a mystery is how each team setup the deployment strat at each circuit. But based on that video, the Honda seems to be on a good path for quali comparison to a Merc.

Having RBR next year will really shine the light.

Singabule
19
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:47 am

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by Singabule » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:42 am

GhostF1 wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:21 am
Juzh wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:37 pm
Engine performance vs mercedes. As you can see Honda is still quite some way off merc's 2.1 PU. 10 kph difference at the line at sub 300 kph speeds would mean at least 40 bhp deficit.

https://youtu.be/gOn_Sz35n7I
It's ain interesting watch actually.

Starting the lap, then turns 1, 2 and 3.. all have long straights leading up to them. Start line, Turn 1 and 2 the STR is down 9kph in all of them, turn 3 that's lessened to only 6kph, then skipping through the middle sector, we have the second last corner that has a bit of a straight leading up to it, the speed difference has lessened again to 5kph, and then crossing the finish line, also about 5kph.
Obviously there's also a bit of driver involvement, chassis aero and energy management strategy etc that contributes to those measurements but, the second half of the lap the Honda is not worlds apart at all, the deficit average is 5kph.
What is a mystery and will always be a mystery is how each team setup the deployment strat at each circuit. But based on that video, the Honda seems to be on a good path for quali comparison to a Merc.

Having RBR next year will really shine the light.
If you put cosworth engine on back of RB, that engine also shine. Looking forward to next year so bad.

rogazilla
5
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:35 pm

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by rogazilla » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:09 pm

McMika98 wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:49 pm
Juzh wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:20 pm

Force india had nearly identical speed on the straight as mercedes (1-2 kph down).

You can't compare quali to FP. There's a high chance a car would get some kind of slipstream at some point durring practice, but not during qualifying.
Ok stop this hypothetical gibberish. Why not take Mclaren as an example, so the renault engine is now 60 hp less? Top speed means nothing, lets compare the lap times cause thats what it is all about. Toro Rosso did similar lap times to Force India so where do you think they have the edge cause it aint the compromised chassis which was way behind FI last year.
Def agree with this. There is so many variable and deduce to top speed for HP comparison is not apple to apple. Neither is lap time, but with lap time we can look at similar lap time from 2 teams and have a better understanding of where the car is (chasis and pu). In term of FI and TR here, we know Honda is down from Merc, then we can say TR made it up in chassis... now if we only know how much is made up by chassis then we would know the difference in PU ;)

amho
3
User avatar
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:15 pm
Location: Iran

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by amho » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:14 pm

Juzh wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:37 pm
Engine performance vs mercedes. As you can see Honda is still quite some way off merc's 2.1 PU. 10 kph difference at the line at sub 300 kph speeds would mean at least 40 bhp deficit.

https://youtu.be/gOn_Sz35n7I
We don't know drag levels or E-deployment strategy during lap to judge decisively about power gap between cars, but I checked the video footage and calculated transmission ratio based on about 30 samples of speed and engine rev and it seems that Torro rosso have lower transmission ratio in 4th, 5th,6th,7th and 8th gear (i didn't check other gears) in comparison to Mercedes,so it explain part of STR's speed deficit compared to Mercedes. It has been a question that why Mclaren Honda also was running lower gear ratio despite of power deficit to it's competitors.
There is no Might or Power except with Allah.

Juzh
242
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:45 am

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by Juzh » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:07 pm

amho wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:14 pm
Juzh wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:37 pm
Engine performance vs mercedes. As you can see Honda is still quite some way off merc's 2.1 PU. 10 kph difference at the line at sub 300 kph speeds would mean at least 40 bhp deficit.

https://youtu.be/gOn_Sz35n7I
We don't know drag levels or E-deployment
Except we do. Under 300 kph drag is of little (less) importance with the power of current V6 turbo (especially under DRS). We can also assume with high certainty that on the start/finish straight every single engine is on max energy deployment. With the speeds that I mentioned, which are below 300, that's not even debatable.

Big Tea
49
User avatar
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by Big Tea » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:17 pm

amho wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:14 pm
Juzh wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:37 pm
Engine performance vs mercedes. As you can see Honda is still quite some way off merc's 2.1 PU. 10 kph difference at the line at sub 300 kph speeds would mean at least 40 bhp deficit.

https://youtu.be/gOn_Sz35n7I
We don't know drag levels or E-deployment strategy during lap to judge decisively about power gap between cars, but I checked the video footage and calculated transmission ratio based on about 30 samples of speed and engine rev and it seems that Torro rosso have lower transmission ratio in 4th, 5th,6th,7th and 8th gear (i didn't check other gears) in comparison to Mercedes,so it explain part of STR's speed deficit compared to Mercedes. It has been a question that why Mclaren Honda also was running lower gear ratio despite of power deficit to it's competitors.
Are they hitting the rev limiter in top? if not, the lower ratio would not give them reduced speed (would it?)
With longer gearing they would be slower as the power unit would still not get them to a higher speed but would also not accelerate then as quickly. (or am I wrong here?)
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

MMMMMMMM
-2
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:34 am

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by MMMMMMMM » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:54 pm

You're basically right. There's no hiding for the lack of power. Longer gears would only hinder them further.

amho
3
User avatar
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:15 pm
Location: Iran

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by amho » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:46 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:17 pm
amho wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:14 pm
Juzh wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:37 pm
Engine performance vs mercedes. As you can see Honda is still quite some way off merc's 2.1 PU. 10 kph difference at the line at sub 300 kph speeds would mean at least 40 bhp deficit.

https://youtu.be/gOn_Sz35n7I
We don't know drag levels or E-deployment strategy during lap to judge decisively about power gap between cars, but I checked the video footage and calculated transmission ratio based on about 30 samples of speed and engine rev and it seems that Torro rosso have lower transmission ratio in 4th, 5th,6th,7th and 8th gear (i didn't check other gears) in comparison to Mercedes,so it explain part of STR's speed deficit compared to Mercedes. It has been a question that why Mclaren Honda also was running lower gear ratio despite of power deficit to it's competitors.
Are they hitting the rev limiter in top? if not, the lower ratio would not give them reduced speed (would it?)
With longer gearing they would be slower as the power unit would still not get them to a higher speed but would also not accelerate then as quickly. (or am I wrong here?)
They don't hit rev limiter, low gear ratio means less torque at wheel so slower acceleration, so it takes more time to reach a certain speed. For exampke imagin you drive a car and going uphill, with 2nd gear you reach near rev limit and speed of 80 kph, but if you go that uphill with 4th gear, car doesn't have enough torque at wheel so a lot slower acceleration and car speed doesn't exceed 60 kph...
There is no Might or Power except with Allah.

loner
11
User avatar
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:34 pm

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by loner » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:48 pm

Honda inferior to Mercedes is common knowledge.
It Tolls for Thee.

Bill
3
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:28 am

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by Bill » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:08 pm

Ferrari is now the best pu , Mercedes has nothing special since oil burning has been burned,they are not trying hard to retain the mguh for 2021 since they no longer have an advantage.honda is the only manufacturer advocating hard to keep it

etusch
56
User avatar
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by etusch » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:36 pm

Mercedes Pu is still best pu but car is not and their PU can not hide weakness of chassis any more