General Honda F1 Topic

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
TakataDomeNSX
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by TakataDomeNSX » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:38 am

godlameroso wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:34 pm
Gasly is young, he'll say young things from time to time. He delivers on track, and the Honda engine will keep developing through the year, I'm eager to see the next step, and I'm sure they still haven't managed to get the most from the current version.
Fair enough, but as someone else has alluded to, we don't know if Gasly is really a super talent until he's paired with someone with a reputation. Based on his GP2 and Super Formula results we know he is very solid at the least and should be getting most of the performance from the car. Without a proper benchmark however we don't know if that's consistent, and if thats 100%, 99% or just 90%

carisi2k
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by carisi2k » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:43 am

I think the main issue is that over a lap like Austria the Honda and Renault can generate 2MJ of ERS-k and 2MJ of ERS-H. Both Mercedes and Ferrari however can generate closer to or the full 4MJ amount in ers-h so that on circuits like Silverstone where the 2MJ of K can't be generated they still have access to the full 4MJ of energy recovery in addition to being able to spin up the turbine.

carisi2k
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by carisi2k » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:45 am

I think the ICE in either the Honda or Renault while still behind Ferrari and Mercedes isn't as far behind as their energy recovery capabilities.

ME4ME
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by ME4ME » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:37 pm

carisi2k wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:45 am
I think the ICE in either the Honda or Renault while still behind Ferrari and Mercedes isn't as far behind as their energy recovery capabilities.
If that's the case, then why aren't Honda and Renault using a more powerfull generative MGUH mode in your opinion? Basically, do you really think that one can seperate ICE and ERS performance with these power units? Arguably only the performance of the sum of all systems is relevant and worth comparing.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:38 pm

carisi2k wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:45 am
I think the ICE in either the Honda or Renault while still behind Ferrari and Mercedes isn't as far behind as their energy recovery capabilities.
I think combustion is the biggest differentiator. This was said by the engine makers already. With better combustion you can use more ERS. Pretty straight forward.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

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Edax
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by Edax » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:02 am

godlameroso wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:34 pm
Gasly is young, he'll say young things from time to time. He delivers on track, and the Honda engine will keep developing through the year, I'm eager to see the next step, and I'm sure they still haven't managed to get the most from the current version.
True. Dealing with journo’s is difficult, it takes experience and self control to get away without giving them more information than you should, it is their job to get some juicy bits after all. I can imagine the temptation for him to show that he is involved in the bigger picture. To elaborate on the development work with Honda, upgrade packages, team strategy etc.

But he has to be extremely careful with that. I guess he wants to show maturity and involment in the team, but it can just as easily clash with team PR. And while he has made his mark on track he does not have the stature of an Alonso to get away with it.

And I think recent history has shown that teams have little tolerance for young drivers getting involved in team politics (Sainz, Wehrlein). What I know from japanese culture, they will certainly not be charmed about a 22year old “employee” discussing their product in public. Better play the dumb driver and let the driving do the talking.

If he learns that I think he’ll be fine. There certainly does not seem to be a lack of talent.

godlameroso
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by godlameroso » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:03 am

Agreed, when you recognize you have talent it's easy to get carried away, maybe he should bump his head and get amnesia, trying to remember everything you forgot is an effective way to become a good listener.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

HPD
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by HPD » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:52 pm

Apparently it is true.
Brendon Hartley has now moved backwards on the grid three times in a row because the engineers had new drive components installed. The New Zealander is already the sixth combustion engine after 10 races.

Red Bull wants to give the engine partner of 2019 the opportunity to test new parts on the track in a timely manner. "Of course we leave the decision to Honda," said team consultant Helmut Marko. "But if they find a tenth with the development, of course, they can try the expansion stage right in the race. Even if that means we're taking penalties for it."
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -red-bull/

HPD
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by HPD » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:13 pm

"It puts Red Bull in a position where both of its teams share the same power unit with the full focus of an OEM [original equipment manufacturer]," he told RaceFans. "With the resource and facilities and investment Honda have made and the progress they have made - particularly in the last six months - for a straightforward decision."

"The agreements that we have with Honda are very much focused on performance and the decision behind the change was driven by engineering reasons opposed to fiscal gain."

“Honda have the strength and depth of resource, the desire and of course we will be their exclusive focus and attention.”

Red Bull co-owner Dietrich Mateschitz is fully behind the deal. “He believes in the Honda programme. He is optimistic about the potential. He sees the benefit to the team of having the full focus of a powerful manufacturer behind it which is the first time in our history.”

This is where Red Bull stands to gain. “It provides us the opportunity to work very closely with an engine partner and be able to have an input at an early stage into the integration between the chassis and power unit rather than accommodating what is effectively defined by another team,” confirms Horner.

Toro Rosso also stands to benefit as it knows well in advance of next season it will use the same engine brand and specification as its elder sibling. This will allow the two to collaborate more closely: they will have “as much synergy as possible” according to Horner.

“Toro Rosso will use a complete Red Bull Technology rear end next year,” he confirms. “Having a common power supplier only makes that easier.”
https://www.racefans.net/2018/07/16/why ... erview-f1/

Revs84
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Revs84 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:14 pm

HPD wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:52 pm
Apparently it is true.
Brendon Hartley has now moved backwards on the grid three times in a row because the engineers had new drive components installed. The New Zealander is already the sixth combustion engine after 10 races.

Red Bull wants to give the engine partner of 2019 the opportunity to test new parts on the track in a timely manner. "Of course we leave the decision to Honda," said team consultant Helmut Marko. "But if they find a tenth with the development, of course, they can try the expansion stage right in the race. Even if that means we're taking penalties for it."
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -red-bull/
Something tells me that the way things panned out, Gasly and Hartley were placed on a different strategy.

Gasly being the main 'points-earner' will stay on the original strategy of 3 PU updates i.e. 3 specs - unless of course he has a failure and needs a new PU, in which case he'll get the latest updates. This will allow TR and Gasly the possibility to gain points and Honda to test for reliability.

On the other hand, Hartley being generally slower, will be their sacrificial lamb for new specs and will get them right away to prove their effectiveness for Gasly and of course next year.

Which maybe could also explain why Hartley was asked to let Gasly through in Austria, even though the former was faster. Toro Rosso reason for that was that they were on a different strategy.

This is all speculation from my side, but might actually hold some water.

Big Tea
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Big Tea » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:29 pm

Revs84 wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:14 pm
HPD wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:52 pm
Apparently it is true.
Brendon Hartley has now moved backwards on the grid three times in a row because the engineers had new drive components installed. The New Zealander is already the sixth combustion engine after 10 races.

Red Bull wants to give the engine partner of 2019 the opportunity to test new parts on the track in a timely manner. "Of course we leave the decision to Honda," said team consultant Helmut Marko. "But if they find a tenth with the development, of course, they can try the expansion stage right in the race. Even if that means we're taking penalties for it."
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -red-bull/
Something tells me that the way things panned out, Gasly and Hartley were placed on a different strategy.

Gasly being the main 'points-earner' will stay on the original strategy of 3 PU updates i.e. 3 specs - unless of course he has a failure and needs a new PU, in which case he'll get the latest updates. This will allow TR and Gasly the possibility to gain points and Honda to test for reliability.

On the other hand, Hartley being generally slower, will be their sacrificial lamb for new specs and will get them right away to prove their effectiveness for Gasly and of course next year.

Which maybe could also explain why Hartley was asked to let Gasly through in Austria, even though the former was faster. Toro Rosso reason for that was that they were on a different strategy.

This is all speculation from my side, but might actually hold some water.

Makes sense, as Hartley is very experienced an perhaps is able to help decipher the reams of data they probably get from the car.

Sometimes a 'feel' is as valid as a graph, so maybe he is not there to race. It does not seem to fit in with the Marco model to keep a non performing driver, so maybe his primary job is satisfactory. (Does he speak Japanese?)
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

NL_Fer
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by NL_Fer » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:11 pm

carisi2k wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:45 am
I think the ICE in either the Honda or Renault while still behind Ferrari and Mercedes isn't as far behind as their energy recovery capabilities.
Mercedes and Ferrari ICE can produces much more exhaust gasses and more blow down energy. As result more energy can be harvested bij the MGU-H.

During a Q lap or the 1st lap after a (re)start, because they can harvest more, they can run a longer part of the track in electric supercharger mode.

Revs84
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by Revs84 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:12 pm

Honda to try and get more upgrades to the ICE this year.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... r-1060521/

makecry
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by makecry » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:35 am

techman wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:17 am
"The chassis is good but with the engine we have we lose too much time"

This is the third or fourth article in the last few weeks where Gasly talks about huge engine deficit. Mclaren waited for third year before venting but fireworks seem to have started already with Toro Rosso.

Honda have improved both in terms of reliability and performance but the road ahead isn't going to be rosy especially in light of a moving target and a huge gap.

honda is a match to renault ,
TR has a history of starting well and falling back, together with rookie drivers i doesnt helps them. wait till next season , when honda have a benchmark chassis and experience drivers. look at mclaren , and vandorne. he is not in his rookie season and still struggles, with their overated chassis design by incompetent mclaren engineers. only driver is giving them all the points
Nopes. Not yet. What does McLaren have to do with Honda anymore? Stop sounding like a bitter ex.

techman
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post by techman » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:52 am

Nopes. Not yet. What does McLaren have to do with Honda anymore? Stop sounding like a bitter ex.
The honda is equal to renault and better smaller package to renault overall. and yes TR is a small team , with new rookies, its not easy. put it some experience drivers and better aero then compare. and YES everything i said about Mclaren has come to be true this season. A bunch on incompetent engineeers. Overated to the MAX. The difference they cant hide anymore this year, with Honda out. Thank you Mclaren for signing with Renault.