General Honda F1 Topic

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
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Capharol
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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PhillipM wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:16 pm
Well, they were winning races with the Renault engine last year, so, yes, you want them to be at that level with the Honda...
that was more due to circumstances and trackconditions as they did it on there own merit, only Austria jumps out.

what I am trying to say with the Renault engine they will never win Italian GP or Belgium GP on Merit....now i am not sure if Honda is capable of this (guess not) but they should at least win Monaco and a few others that suits the car/engine
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.
"Most people seem to turn off their brain when they turn on the computer and log in to social media."

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HPD
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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JordanMugen wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:29 pm
How much similarity or relationship was there between the 1999 & 2000 Mugen V10s, and the 2000 Honda V10? Was there an exchange of data or engineers between these two projects?

Were the Mugen-Honda engines funded by Honda to some extent? :?: I assume that they were given the partial Honda branding on the engine cover, and a higher level of competitiveness than you would expect for a pure privateer engine (if development was only funded by what the Jordan team paid for the engine).
I understand that there was a technical collaboration. Although we do not know if it was too much.
Mugen started F1 using Honda engines as a base to develop.
But "theoretically" in 2000, Honda and Mugen had different engines.

Mugen Honda:
V10 MF 301 HE
770 HP
15800 rpm

Honda:
RA000E V10
810HP
17000 rpm

Here you can see all the engines of Mugen - Honda. And other data.
https://www.statsf1.com/es/moteur-mugen-honda.aspx
https://www.diariomotor.com/competicion ... mensiones/

And to finish :lol:
Image

PhillipM
PhillipM
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Capharol wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:44 pm
PhillipM wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:16 pm
Well, they were winning races with the Renault engine last year, so, yes, you want them to be at that level with the Honda...
that was more due to circumstances and trackconditions as they did it on there own merit, only Austria jumps out.
A little disenginous there, Renault made some great progress on their ERS side last year and it showed at places like Mexico, Brazil and Austria at high altitudes. It certainly wasn't just down to the car, as even Renaults own cars were faster than expected.

So yes, given that toward the end of last year they were winning races, if Honda have kept up the development pace the same as everyone else over winter, you'd want them to be in with a shout of doing the same this season if you're going to outright say the Honda is better than the Renault.

Personally I'm expecting a few teething troubles. Newey has never been kind to power units with packaging.

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Jambier
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Wouter wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:14 pm
Jambier wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:49 pm
I think in best case scénario, RB will be in 2019 at the same level than if they have kept the Renault
In the best case scénario?
Did you miss that the Honda engine was already faster than the Renault engine at the end of last season?
They have now made a lot of progress again. Not only with the ICE but also with the electrical part.
How can RB in the best case scénario be at the same level than with a Renault engine. That is very illogical imo.

Anyway, we are going to see how great the Renault engine has become during the winter, for the very first time.
According to... Marko
You can't take seriously RedBull communication.

Honda will have to use 3 engines per year, be reliable, and be fast.
They have a lot of work to do, and I'm pleased to see their progress.

But Renault and all the other progress as well.
So having an engine as reliable and powerful as the Renault would be a great win for Honda indeed.

You can't expect them to have in 2019 an engine with both same reliability, power and fuel economy than Ferrari or Mercedes.
2020 is a more realistic target

restless
restless
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Wouter wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:14 pm
Jambier wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:49 pm
I think in best case scénario, RB will be in 2019 at the same level than if they have kept the Renault
In the best case scénario?
Did you miss that the Honda engine was already faster than the Renault engine at the end of last season?
They have now made a lot of progress again. Not only with the ICE but also with the electrical part.
How can RB in the best case scénario be at the same level than with a Renault engine. That is very illogical imo.

Anyway, we are going to see how great the Renault engine has become during the winter, for the very first time.
don't say hop before you jump

zack!
zack!
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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[
You can't expect them to have in 2019 an engine with both same reliability, power and fuel economy than Ferrari or Mercedes.
]
Tanabe said they still have efficiency issue (read fuel overconsumption = wight penailty, or fuel saving mode) , and RB said 5 victories granted 5 PU a year.

I think Renault will probably be better than that, 3 PU a year and better fuel consumption and better power and better driveability.

I think renault C version was quite good at low revs, with a particularly torquy an linear ice at that range, even compare to mercedes. For some circuits, with traction of RB14 it was a very good package (by the way they beat ferrari and mercedes some times !).

So for me, it is quite unlikely Honda will be the thir PU this year. May be, but not the more logical.

GhostF1
GhostF1
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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zack! wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:40 pm
[
You can't expect them to have in 2019 an engine with both same reliability, power and fuel economy than Ferrari or Mercedes.
]
Tanabe said they still have efficiency issue (read fuel overconsumption = wight penailty, or fuel saving mode) , and RB said 5 victories granted 5 PU a year.

I think Renault will probably be better than that, 3 PU a year and better fuel consumption and better power and better driveability.

I think renault C version was quite good at low revs, with a particularly torquy an linear ice at that range, even compare to mercedes. For some circuits, with traction of RB14 it was a very good package (by the way they beat ferrari and mercedes some times !).

So for me, it is quite unlikely Honda will be the thir PU this year. May be, but not the more logical.
That is a compete misconception. If you are referring to the very end of the season where Red Bull seemed to be quite strong even power wise, namely Mexico, you have to consider a couple things.

- That unit was a brand new unit from Renault and it was actually a Spec B because Renault could not guarantee the Spec C would even function correctly at altitude. Combine this with the fact both Merc and Ferrari were on their last engine for the year and they were very nearly at the end of their lives. So it seems only natural a fresh Renault engine would have a smaller gap to tired Merc/Fez units.
- The Spec C indeed had more power, even Max and Christian were quoted saying it did, however Max constantly criticised it's power delivery, finding it acting inappropriate under braking and difficult on throttle. Comparatively, Max stated that the Honda drives in a totally different manner to the Renault so he had to readjust, but driveability was excellent and the unit felt punchier.

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Jambier
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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We also need to remember that RB used the wrong fuel and MGU K last year.

Going to Honda is the right choice of course: Factory team, free engines, lot of investment from Honda, and big progress.
So I think from 2020 they will see the benefits (One year experience, better intégration)

But I'm just worried about their communication, I don't want them to put to much pression on Honda like McLaren was.

Honda in 2018 was:

- Big progress
- But still bad fuel consumption
- Use 8 engine a year
- Still 20hp down on Renault - Except in qualy mode -

This winter everyone have progressed, Renault as well with better reliability and 40hp more.

Then that's why I say if Honda 2019 = Renault 2019, this is the best case scenario and it means huge progress:

- It means 60hp win over the winter
- It means going from 8 to 4 engine a year
- And it means better fuel consumption

All of that in one winter. Almost to good to be true.
So thinking they are now close to Mercedes of Ferrari, it's just dreaming. In 2020, I think they can, but in 2019 RB should better be patient and not put extra pressure on Honda

Stef
Stef
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Don't forget a bunch of those replaced engines were perfectly healthy

GhostF1
GhostF1
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Jambier wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:12 am
We also need to remember that RB used the wrong fuel and MGU K last year.

Going to Honda is the right choice of course: Factory team, free engines, lot of investment from Honda, and big progress.
So I think from 2020 they will see the benefits (One year experience, better intégration)

But I'm just worried about their communication, I don't want them to put to much pression on Honda like McLaren was.

Honda in 2018 was:

- Big progress
- But still bad fuel consumption
- Use 8 engine a year
- Still 20hp down on Renault - Except in qualy mode -

This winter everyone have progressed, Renault as well with better reliability and 40hp more.

Then that's why I say if Honda 2019 = Renault 2019, this is the best case scenario and it means huge progress:

- It means 60hp win over the winter
- It means going from 8 to 4 engine a year
- And it means better fuel consumption

All of that in one winter. Almost to good to be true.
So thinking they are now close to Mercedes of Ferrari, it's just dreaming. In 2020, I think they can, but in 2019 RB should better be patient and not put extra pressure on Honda
Where has this "Honda were behind Renault power wise with bad consumption" nonsense come from?
This hasn't been stated by any actual source. 2018 Toro Rosso never once mentioned bouts of fuel saving... So not sure how that has been mentioned. And power... How have we come to this conclusion? Christian Horner, in Canada where Honda debuted Spec 2, said that both the Renault Spec B and Honda Spec 2 were within 1% of each other in race trim... That is the only fact uttered we could believe.

Bring on Russia. Honda debuts Spec 3. Initial teething problems yes re: vibrations however it was widely reported Honda had found a Huge amount of performance. Much bigger than the jump from 1-2. And it was then pretty much believed they were clearly ahead of Renault. Logic would also lead to this conclusion..

So I can't understand how we have this Renault were ahead, or Honda have bad fuel consumption nonsense. It's baseless and keeps being paraded as fact.

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Wouter
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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GhostF1 wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:19 pm
Jambier wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:12 am
We also need to remember that RB used the wrong fuel and MGU K last year.

Going to Honda is the right choice of course: Factory team, free engines, lot of investment from Honda, and big progress.
So I think from 2020 they will see the benefits (One year experience, better intégration)

But I'm just worried about their communication, I don't want them to put to much pression on Honda like McLaren was.

Honda in 2018 was:

- Big progress
- But still bad fuel consumption
- Use 8 engine a year
- Still 20hp down on Renault - Except in qualy mode -

This winter everyone have progressed, Renault as well with better reliability and 40hp more.

Then that's why I say if Honda 2019 = Renault 2019, this is the best case scenario and it means huge progress:

- It means 60hp win over the winter
- It means going from 8 to 4 engine a year
- And it means better fuel consumption

All of that in one winter. Almost to good to be true.
So thinking they are now close to Mercedes of Ferrari, it's just dreaming. In 2020, I think they can, but in 2019 RB should better be patient and not put extra pressure on Honda
.

Where has this "Honda were behind Renault power wise with bad consumption" nonsense come from?

These nonsens comes from @ Jambier. Over and over again, so often that he has come to believe in it himself!

He doesn't do anything else but to post wrong and bad information about Honda. :roll:

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yener
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Last year in Mexico, RBR concluded from GPS data, that the Honda engine would gain them 0.6 seconds a lap ;)

Offcourse both Honda and Renault made progress this winter, but i would like to remind that this is renaults first year off their ( new ) engine concept.

But everything will be clear in a couple days. I believe in the worst scenario, Honda has equal power to the Renault engine.
"Life is about passions - Thank you for sharing mine" MSC

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Jambier
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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So you all believe Red Bull communication then.
We can take things on the other side:

- Renault said that Honda 2018 was still at the end of year 20kw down compared to Renault.
- Renault said that they were 50hp down on qualy and 15-20kw down in race compared to top Mercedes/Ferrari.

- Paddock said that RB was disappointed when Honda put a special mode for Canada to conclude a deal, then goes a big way down on power.
- RB was not using same fuel as Renault

Then there was this GPS analysis:
Mercedes peak power = Ferrari = 1030 hp in qualy and 980 hp (race - average)
Renault 990 hp and 950 race.
Honda 950 hp and 930 race

There was also Amus analysis saying that Renault was 20Hp in front of Honda.


Conclusion is: You can't trust RB communication. We don't know how Honda and Renault 2019 engine compare, and I think we will not really know it even during the 2019 season.
But believing that Honda is now ahead of Renault with a large margin is just dreaming.

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Wouter
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Jambier wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:09 pm

- Renault said that Honda 2018 was still at the end of year 20kw down compared to Renault.
- Renault said that they were 50hp down on qualy and 15-20kw down in race compared to top Mercedes/Ferrari.

Now I get it !! You still believe in fairy tales !!
Abiteblabla likes to tell fairy tales. Never noticed?


Then there was this GPS analysis:
Mercedes peak power = Ferrari = 1030 hp in qualy and 980 hp (race - average)
Renault 990 hp and 950 race.
Honda 950 hp and 930 race

False information again!

Ferrari 790 HP (ICE)
Merc 780 HP
Honda 760 HP
Renault 740 HP


There was also Amus analysis saying that Renault was 20Hp in front of Honda.

That was after the Renault C spec and before Honda introduced the spec 3.0 and 3.1 ! An upgrade of more than 40 HP.

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JordanMugen
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Jambier wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:09 pm
Conclusion is: You can't trust RB communication.
:roll:

Why would Horner lie when he said Honda is worth 0.6s over Renault on SkyTV? How pointless would that be?