General Honda F1 Topic

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
User avatar
Jambier
16
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:02 am
Location: France

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:09 pm
Jambier wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:09 pm
Conclusion is: You can't trust RB communication.
:roll:

Why would Horner lie when he said Honda is worth 0.6s over Renault on SkyTV? How pointless would that be?
Didn't you notice the "communication war" between Red Bull and Renault ? :mrgreen:
And even now, separated from Renault, they keep talking about them or trying to say to the world how bad Renault was :lol:

Isn't that pointless ? My point from the beginning is that their communication is silly and risk to hurt Honda as well.

But if their communication is true: They have the best chassis, they have the best driver (Max), and now they have the almost best engine.
So, there will be no excuse if they are not world champion this year. Let's wait December then

User avatar
Capharol
60
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

oh boy @jambier, i have read you posts now for several days, but now i can't help myself by reacting on your last posts, because they are so false, that even Trump would be ashamed.
1) if i could i would downvote all your posting from te last few days, because you just don't listen or being open for other opinions (which are more correct then all you posts together)
2) i guess we all know WHY you are speaking so bad about RB and Honda...... you are from France..... this alone says enough, to clarify for other, French = Renault = hates other opinions (stubborn ppl)
3) somehow i believe Horner, Marko, and Honda more, then your words (maybe because they are clear BS)
4) they don't plan to be champion this year ...... they planning this year as a learning process, yes they wanna win races (Monaco, Mexico, etc.), but above all they wanna know how far they can go (enginewise) do they need 5 engine to get through this season, yes very possible because they wanna go for the championship in 2020 (the last year they can make Verstappen the youngest WC)

so I have 1, yes only 1 request for you..... stop writing here or show any source that support your thesis, if you can't, stop this BS as long as you don't have any real facts
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.
"Most people seem to turn off their brain when they turn on the computer and log in to social media."

User avatar
Wouter
625
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

Capharol wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:09 pm
oh boy @jambier, i have read you posts now for several days, but now i can't help myself by reacting on your last posts, because they are so false, that even Trump would be ashamed.
............
I totaly agree with you! He doesn't listen or being open for other opinions . #-o

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
336
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:54 am

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

Capharol wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:09 pm
oh boy @jambier, i have read you posts now for several days, but now i can't help myself by reacting on your last posts, because they are so false, that even Trump would be ashamed.
1) if i could i would downvote all your posting from te last few days, because you just don't listen or being open for other opinions (which are more correct then all you posts together)
2) i guess we all know WHY you are speaking so bad about RB and Honda...... you are from France..... this alone says enough, to clarify for other, French = Renault = hates other opinions (stubborn ppl)
3) somehow i believe Horner, Marko, and Honda more, then your words (maybe because they are clear BS)
4) they don't plan to be champion this year ...... they planning this year as a learning process, yes they wanna win races (Monaco, Mexico, etc.), but above all they wanna know how far they can go (enginewise) do they need 5 engine to get through this season, yes very possible because they wanna go for the championship in 2020 (the last year they can make Verstappen the youngest WC)

so I have 1, yes only 1 request for you..... stop writing here or show any source that support your thesis, if you can't, stop this BS as long as you don't have any real facts
1) How can you qualify an “opinion” as correct or incorrect? The data used could be, but an opinion is just that, an opinion and even when you may disagree with it, you can’t say his incorrect.

2) That has to be one of the most ignorant comments I’ve read on this site... Because his French, his opinion is BS? French = Hates others opinions (Stubborn)? Shame on you for such an idiotic comment. You can disagree with his points of view but such a generalization disqualifies you from any argument.

3) That’s on you who do you believe... And just as he is entitled to his opinion, you are entitled to believe on anyone.

4) That’s not entirely true... RBR wants to be Champions, further if you “believe” in everything Horner, Marko say (as you pointed out), then you should realize that they are looking for the championship... Marko says that they will win 5 races this year (which means winning 25% of the races in the Championship), they say that the Honda engine is better than Renault in power, reliability, etc... Therefore, if they were fighting Mercedes and Ferrari on ocassion in 2018, they should be fighting if not for wins, at least for podiums... They have said (almost to exhaustion) that they have the best chassis / car on the grid and that they have the best driver on the grid (Max)... Therefore, it they don’t win the Championship this season, it really should be a failure

User avatar
HPD
397
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:06 pm

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

1) Keep silence
2) Keep silence
3) Keep silence
4) Keep silence

:)

User avatar
Sieper
150
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

Please retract your point 2 Capharol, that is just nonsense. He might be a Renault enthusiast (which I highly expect) and from that point have a bias (and I agree that it is starting a bit to look like Honda bashing) but that does not mean you can (or should) write stuff like that.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

User avatar
etusch
199
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

Jambier wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:14 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:09 pm
Jambier wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:09 pm
Conclusion is: You can't trust RB communication.
:roll:

Why would Horner lie when he said Honda is worth 0.6s over Renault on SkyTV? How pointless would that be?
Didn't you notice the "communication war" between Red Bull and Renault ? :mrgreen:
And even now, separated from Renault, they keep talking about them or trying to say to the world how bad Renault was :lol:

Isn't that pointless ? My point from the beginning is that their communication is silly and risk to hurt Honda as well.

But if their communication is true: They have the best chassis, they have the best driver (Max), and now they have the almost best engine.
So, there will be no excuse if they are not world champion this year. Let's wait December then
If Redbull can fight during whole season for one of Wdc or wcc, will you be ok what they said about new partnership and chassis ?

User avatar
Juzh
572
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:45 am

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

PhillipM wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:09 pm
Capharol wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:44 pm
PhillipM wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:16 pm
Well, they were winning races with the Renault engine last year, so, yes, you want them to be at that level with the Honda...
that was more due to circumstances and trackconditions as they did it on there own merit, only Austria jumps out.
A little disenginous there, Renault made some great progress on their ERS side last year and it showed at places like Mexico, Brazil and Austria at high altitudes. It certainly wasn't just down to the car, as even Renaults own cars were faster than expected.

So yes, given that toward the end of last year they were winning races, if Honda have kept up the development pace the same as everyone else over winter, you'd want them to be in with a shout of doing the same this season if you're going to outright say the Honda is better than the Renault.

Personally I'm expecting a few teething troubles. Newey has never been kind to power units with packaging.
Where's this coming from? I've watched literally every practice, quali and race onboard with telemetry included last year and renault was nowhere on the straights, doesn't matter if long, short, medium, it was garbage everywhere, all the time, in every race. That includes mexico, where ferrari was still 15-20 kmh up on the red bulls, and even more on the draggy renaults and mclarens.

Not once since 2014 did RB win because of renault, it was always in spite of it. When engine power importance gets diminished significantly they had a chance, otherwise not even close.

User avatar
Jambier
16
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:02 am
Location: France

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

Capharol wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:09 pm
oh boy @jambier, i have read you posts now for several days, but now i can't help myself by reacting on your last posts, because they are so false, that even Trump would be ashamed.
1) if i could i would downvote all your posting from te last few days, because you just don't listen or being open for other opinions (which are more correct then all you posts together)
2) i guess we all know WHY you are speaking so bad about RB and Honda...... you are from France..... this alone says enough, to clarify for other, French = Renault = hates other opinions (stubborn ppl)
3) somehow i believe Horner, Marko, and Honda more, then your words (maybe because they are clear BS)
4) they don't plan to be champion this year ...... they planning this year as a learning process, yes they wanna win races (Monaco, Mexico, etc.), but above all they wanna know how far they can go (enginewise) do they need 5 engine to get through this season, yes very possible because they wanna go for the championship in 2020 (the last year they can make Verstappen the youngest WC)

so I have 1, yes only 1 request for you..... stop writing here or show any source that support your thesis, if you can't, stop this BS as long as you don't have any real facts
I came here first because I like Honda, and I think RBR communication is bullshit and will hurt them. They should handle themselves and not let RB

So I'm not closed to other opinion, I'm curious to see Honda progress.
And screaming that they are wonderful will just hurt them if there are reliabilities issues / lack of perfomance.
But if other opinion is just believing RB comments... I'd prefer to have words from Honda directly.

You seem to say that my figures/sources are BS, I don't think they are more than RB declaration that's all.
I'm not the one acting as fanboy here.

Then we will never know, because they will be no real way to compare engines in 2019 - so ultimately it will be down to a communication war -

User avatar
Jambier
16
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:02 am
Location: France

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

etusch wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:44 pm

If Redbull can fight during whole season for one of Wdc or wcc, will you be ok what they said about new partnership and chassis ?
I'm already convinced they made the good choice !

- Factory engine, with lot of investment from Honda
- Great progress from Honda
- Free engine

It was the best choice for them.
My point is just that they should be more careful, and let Honda work because in 2018 they were still far off a good F1 engine.
I think 2019 will be another step forward, but 2020 will be a more realistic target for an engine that can compare to Ferrari / Mercedes.
And in the meantime, Renault is progressing as well.

User avatar
Capharol
60
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:29 pm
Capharol wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:09 pm
oh boy @jambier, i have read you posts now for several days, but now i can't help myself by reacting on your last posts, because they are so false, that even Trump would be ashamed.
1) if i could i would downvote all your posting from te last few days, because you just don't listen or being open for other opinions (which are more correct then all you posts together)
2) i guess we all know WHY you are speaking so bad about RB and Honda...... you are from France..... this alone says enough, to clarify for other, French = Renault = hates other opinions (stubborn ppl)
3) somehow i believe Horner, Marko, and Honda more, then your words (maybe because they are clear BS)
4) they don't plan to be champion this year ...... they planning this year as a learning process, yes they wanna win races (Monaco, Mexico, etc.), but above all they wanna know how far they can go (enginewise) do they need 5 engine to get through this season, yes very possible because they wanna go for the championship in 2020 (the last year they can make Verstappen the youngest WC)

so I have 1, yes only 1 request for you..... stop writing here or show any source that support your thesis, if you can't, stop this BS as long as you don't have any real facts
1) How can you qualify an “opinion” as correct or incorrect? The data used could be, but an opinion is just that, an opinion and even when you may disagree with it, you can’t say his incorrect.

2) That has to be one of the most ignorant comments I’ve read on this site... Because his French, his opinion is BS? French = Hates others opinions (Stubborn)? Shame on you for such an idiotic comment. You can disagree with his points of view but such a generalization disqualifies you from any argument.

3) That’s on you who do you believe... And just as he is entitled to his opinion, you are entitled to believe on anyone.

4) That’s not entirely true... RBR wants to be Champions, further if you “believe” in everything Horner, Marko say (as you pointed out), then you should realize that they are looking for the championship... Marko says that they will win 5 races this year (which means winning 25% of the races in the Championship), they say that the Honda engine is better than Renault in power, reliability, etc... Therefore, if they were fighting Mercedes and Ferrari on ocassion in 2018, they should be fighting if not for wins, at least for podiums... They have said (almost to exhaustion) that they have the best chassis / car on the grid and that they have the best driver on the grid (Max)... Therefore, it they don’t win the Championship this season, it really should be a failure
on point 1 read his other posts
on point 2 maybe i put it the wrong way, i meant he is french and therefor highly likely a Renault fan therefor biased, due to the history between RB and Renault, for me Renault=Abiteboul=Stubborn (which he is, but that is F1-Politics, i guess) that was my intention, if this was understood wrong, my apologies

on point 3 i don't say I believe all Horner, Marko or Honda what they are saying, but i am pretty sure those 3 has more and bette information on whats going on then Jambier do

on point 4 RB and Honda told at the start of there relation they see 2019 as a "practice year" and go for the title in 2020.
Maybe they changed there mind over the winter or during wintertest, when Verstappen can be on the podium every race till Barcelona or at least 4th, in my Opinion HE IS a title contender.
but as said .... the have said 2019 would be a "trail year" if this has changed even better, because then they trust there car and the Honda-Engine
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.
"Most people seem to turn off their brain when they turn on the computer and log in to social media."

User avatar
etusch
199
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

Jambier wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:56 pm
etusch wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:44 pm

If Redbull can fight during whole season for one of Wdc or wcc, will you be ok what they said about new partnership and chassis ?
I'm already convinced they made the good choice !

- Factory engine, with lot of investment from Honda
- Great progress from Honda
- Free engine

It was the best choice for them.
My point is just that they should be more careful, and let Honda work because in 2018 they were still far off a good F1 engine.
I think 2019 will be another step forward, but 2020 will be a more realistic target for an engine that can compare to Ferrari / Mercedes.
And in the meantime, Renault is progressing as well.
what is the point of your 2018 engine comment ? What we could see that engine with 2018 Redbull chassis ? What Sains and Ericson said about Honda engine ?

User avatar
Marti_EF3
327
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:45 pm
Location: Spain

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

HPD wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:45 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:29 pm
How much similarity or relationship was there between the 1999 & 2000 Mugen V10s, and the 2000 Honda V10? Was there an exchange of data or engineers between these two projects?

Were the Mugen-Honda engines funded by Honda to some extent? :?: I assume that they were given the partial Honda branding on the engine cover, and a higher level of competitiveness than you would expect for a pure privateer engine (if development was only funded by what the Jordan team paid for the engine).
I understand that there was a technical collaboration. Although we do not know if it was too much.
Mugen started F1 using Honda engines as a base to develop.
But "theoretically" in 2000, Honda and Mugen had different engines.

Mugen Honda:
V10 MF 301 HE
770 HP
15800 rpm

Honda:
RA000E V10
810HP
17000 rpm

Here you can see all the engines of Mugen - Honda. And other data.
https://www.statsf1.com/es/moteur-mugen-honda.aspx
https://www.diariomotor.com/competicion ... mensiones/

And to finish :lol:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DguexvkXcAAZR94.jpg
I'm sure Honda had something with the Mugen engines... It's a sub-division of Honda founded by Soichiro Honda son, so... I think Honda was behind looking and learning

GhostF1
GhostF1
233
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:11 am

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

Jambier wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:09 pm
So you all believe Red Bull communication then.
We can take things on the other side:

- Renault said that Honda 2018 was still at the end of year 20kw down compared to Renault.
- Renault said that they were 50hp down on qualy and 15-20kw down in race compared to top Mercedes/Ferrari.

We can't believe Red Bull in 2018, who were at this stage the only party who could compare both power units? (I might add Honda never speak out about this stuff, however Renault... they are exorbitant when it comes to belittling a fellow manufacturer and sensationalising their position). But, you want us to believe Renault themselves that they are clearly ahead? You give dictionary meaning to hypocrite

- Paddock said that RB was disappointed when Honda put a special mode for Canada to conclude a deal, then goes a big way down on power.
- RB was not using same fuel as Renault

Link, I haven't heard anything of the sort. More baseless rubbish

Then there was this GPS analysis:
Mercedes peak power = Ferrari = 1030 hp in qualy and 980 hp (race - average)
Renault 990 hp and 950 race.
Honda 950 hp and 930 race

There was also Amus analysis saying that Renault was 20Hp in front of Honda.

As Wouter has beaten me to mentioning, even though this article is also baseless, this was Renault's last specification and before Honda introduce the Spec 3, which again brought a big jump in power

Conclusion is: You can't trust RB communication. We don't know how Honda and Renault 2019 engine compare, and I think we will not really know it even during the 2019 season.
But believing that Honda is now ahead of Renault with a large margin is just dreaming.

Conclusion: Using Renault and specifically Abiteboul to parade power unit "truths" in comparison to another manufacturer is actual delusion.. Abiteboul at one point said they were 10hp or less behind Mercedes!!! Please..

ivanlesk
ivanlesk
14
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:09 pm

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

Wouter wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:25 pm
Capharol wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:09 pm
oh boy @jambier, i have read you posts now for several days, but now i can't help myself by reacting on your last posts, because they are so false, that even Trump would be ashamed.
............
I totaly agree with you! He doesn't listen or being open for other opinions . #-o
In that manner, he is not different from alot of you around here.