General Honda F1 Topic

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
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Capharol
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Jambier wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:41 pm
- Honda is using a huge budget with very low promotion. We are at the firsts win so we speak about Honda, but next what ? Honda's name will barely be visible on the RBR and nobody will speak about it :(

- In addition, I think they are providing RB for free.

So I can understand Honda's direction thinking that it may be too expensive.

I good move could be to buy back... Mercedes, as they are many rumors about them leaving F1
wow how very wrong can you be?

- Honda will always be related to RBR during podiums or wins, especially after their first win with Red Bull and their first Podium in Australia with....... Red Bull, after the win Max pointed at the Logo of ..... Honda

- i don't think they provide Red Bull for free but the price for Red Bull might be " a bit" lower as they have paid Renault... Honda does more then only F1

- no they won't buy back into F1, they aren't interested in coming back as a team (for now) as they have already stated earlier this year.

https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/07/hon ... udget-cap/
“We know that continuity in Formula 1 is very important,” he explained. “So we have done five years for power unit and somehow now reaching a good area.

“However if we start the chassis now we are going to have another struggle again which we don’t want.”
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.
"Most people seem to turn off their brain when they turn on the computer and log in to social media."

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izzy
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Jambier wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:41 pm

Yeah I was thinking the same

- Honda is using a huge budget with very low promotion. We are at the firsts win so we speak about Honda, but next what ? Honda's name will barely be visible on the RBR and nobody will speak about it :(

- In addition, I think they are providing RB for free.

So I can understand Honda's direction thinking that it may be too expensive.

I good move could be to buy back... Mercedes, as they are many rumors about them leaving F1
I would be amazed if Mercedes quit F1, it was estimated Equivalent Advertising Value or whatever it is at $3.8 BILLION and it cost them only about £25m last year iirc so they're not going anywhere! They have the exact reason Honda would want in

I don't know who Honda could buy, i suppose anyone who'd sell, but it's a great time to start because of all the staff being laid off by the big teams with the budget cut, and good F1 staff is the biggest hurdle i bet. If they were ruthless I suppose they could withdraw their engines then buy Red Bull, or threaten to do that

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Big Tea
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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izzy wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:57 pm
Jambier wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:41 pm

Yeah I was thinking the same

- Honda is using a huge budget with very low promotion. We are at the firsts win so we speak about Honda, but next what ? Honda's name will barely be visible on the RBR and nobody will speak about it :(

- In addition, I think they are providing RB for free.

So I can understand Honda's direction thinking that it may be too expensive.

I good move could be to buy back... Mercedes, as they are many rumors about them leaving F1
I would be amazed if Mercedes quit F1, it was estimated Equivalent Advertising Value or whatever it is at $3.8 BILLION and it cost them only about £25m last year iirc so they're not going anywhere! They have the exact reason Honda would want in

I don't know who Honda could buy, i suppose anyone who'd sell, but it's a great time to start because of all the staff being laid off by the big teams with the budget cut, and good F1 staff is the biggest hurdle i bet. If they were ruthless I suppose they could withdraw their engines then buy Red Bull, or threaten to do that
IF Honda bought in, and I doubt it, I see STR as a good option. They know they work well there and with the boss team using engines a supply line for listed parts looks all set. They could start minimal and develop one area at a time.
RBR probably would not mind their success as ti would still rub off on them as it has been assocated for so long
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

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Wouter
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:15 pm
izzy wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:57 pm
Jambier wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:41 pm

Yeah I was thinking the same

- Honda is using a huge budget with very low promotion. We are at the firsts win so we speak about Honda, but next what ? Honda's name will barely be visible on the RBR and nobody will speak about it :(

- In addition, I think they are providing RB for free.

So I can understand Honda's direction thinking that it may be too expensive.

I good move could be to buy back... Mercedes, as they are many rumors about them leaving F1
I would be amazed if Mercedes quit F1, it was estimated Equivalent Advertising Value or whatever it is at $3.8 BILLION and it cost them only about £25m last year iirc so they're not going anywhere! They have the exact reason Honda would want in

I don't know who Honda could buy, i suppose anyone who'd sell, but it's a great time to start because of all the staff being laid off by the big teams with the budget cut, and good F1 staff is the biggest hurdle i bet. If they were ruthless I suppose they could withdraw their engines then buy Red Bull, or threaten to do that
IF Honda bought in, and I doubt it, I see STR as a good option. They know they work well there and with the boss team using engines a supply line for listed parts looks all set. They could start minimal and develop one area at a time.
RBR probably would not mind their success as ti would still rub off on them as it has been assocated for so long
Honda has often said that it has no interest in having its own team in F1. They want to be able to focus 100% on developing and delivering an engine, preferably the best engine.

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nzjrs
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Jambier wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:41 pm
- Honda is using a huge budget with very low promotion. We are at the firsts win so we speak about Honda, but next what ? Honda's name will barely be visible on the RBR and nobody will speak about it :(
I don't quite know how to express the feeling, the stark comparison I have when I watch the Japanese grand prix and the German grand prix. There is a quantitative difference at how the fans really do *love* Honda.

The German grand prix seems so.... bland. It barely sells out, and (I'm not being provocative here), but does anyone really *love* Mercedes. I acknowledge there are a lot of passionate Hamilton fans, but Mercedes just seems like white bread to me.

This level of fan engagement has to map to marketing or brand value, there is a cultural dimension no doubt here too. Anyway, some musings on how outsiders looking in onto a global brand can have difficulty assessing the value of F1.

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izzy
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:15 pm
IF Honda bought in, and I doubt it, I see STR as a good option. They know they work well there and with the boss team using engines a supply line for listed parts looks all set. They could start minimal and develop one area at a time.
RBR probably would not mind their success as ti would still rub off on them as it has been assocated for so long
yes I was thinking of STR, then i thought they're not really in the best place geographically, especially now Honda have their place in Milton Keynes, F1 Valley, and also there's the issue of whether people in the mummy team like Adrian would be too keen on them actually beating them. And a junior team generally isn't great, brand wise

yes @Wouter they might not be interested, but they did before and it's not an accident that all the other 3 oem's have their own team with their own brand. Red Bull are in it to promote Red Bull after all, they don't want to dilute that, it's why even when they were winning everything Renault only really got mentioned when they went wrong. Honda have been mentioned as the reason Red Bull/Max didn't win, then when they do start to win they'll gradually not be mentioned at all. Renault learned this lesson and bought Lotus

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izzy
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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nzjrs wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:34 pm
I don't quite know how to express the feeling, the stark comparison I have when I watch the Japanese grand prix and the German grand prix. There is a quantitative difference at how the fans really do *love* Honda.

The German grand prix seems so.... bland. It barely sells out, and (I'm not being provocative here), but does anyone really *love* Mercedes. I acknowledge there are a lot of passionate Hamilton fans, but Mercedes just seems like white bread to me.

This level of fan engagement has to map to marketing or brand value, there is a cultural dimension no doubt here too. Anyway, some musings on how outsiders looking in onto a global brand can have difficulty assessing the value of F1.
Yes the germans have had so much success in F1 it's not special any more. The Japanese have kept trying and not really had it, since whenever. It's a huge opportunity. Juju Noda in a Honda/Honda... :shock: 8) =D> \:D/

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nzjrs
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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izzy wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:59 pm
Yes the germans have had so much success in F1 it's not special any more. The Japanese have kept trying and not really had it, since whenever. It's a huge opportunity. Juju Noda in a Honda/Honda... :shock: 8) =D> \:D/
Mine was also a musing on the cultures difference in relative importance and interest in engineering or driver. The stereotype is 'German Engineering Precision', yet it took Schumacher to excite the motherland. Meanwhile Honda puts their F1 engine in a glass display case at Suzuka, gives it a photo shoot and magazine special, and people queue to be first to see both.

Whatever that speaks to, it is not as simple as how you put it.

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izzy
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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nzjrs wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:06 pm
Mine was also a musing on the cultures difference in relative importance and interest in engineering or driver. The stereotype is 'German Engineering Precision', yet it took Schumacher to excite the motherland. Meanwhile Honda puts their F1 engine in a glass display case at Suzuka, gives it a photo shoot and magazine special, and people queue to be first to see both.

Whatever that speaks to, it is not as simple as how you put it.
oh yes i'm not dismissing your point about cultures, tho the Germans were into motor racing the century before last, way before Schumi. But oh for a really top Japanese driver! And a top F1 team

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Wouter
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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izzy wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:49 pm
Honda have been mentioned as the reason Red Bull/Max didn't win,
then when they do start to win they'll gradually not be mentioned at all.
Renault learned this lesson and bought Lotus
So Renault bought Lotus because RB never mentioned Renault?? #-o

".....then when they do start to win they'll gradually not be mentioned at all."

Some sentences to remind you....

Max Verstappen @Max33Verstappen

It was an incredible race and an amazing win! 💪🏻 Thank you @redbullracing,
thank you @HondaRacingF1, thank you fans, thank you all! 🙌 #KeepPushing #OrangeArmy #AustrianGP
Image
https://twitter.com/Max33Verstappen/sta ... 4856952837
https://twitter.com/Max33Verstappen/sta ... 6007250944
Max Verstappen @Max33Verstappen

YES boys! 💪 Incredible to take pole position here! A big thank you to @redbullracing and
@HondaRacingF1 for the great car 👌 #KeepPushing #MexicoGP
https://twitter.com/Max33Verstappen/sta ... 5039876097
Max Verstappen @Max33Verstappen

Unbelievable! Thrilled to have won 💪 We had to be on top of our game and keep pushing the whole race.
Great team work by @redbullracing and@HondaRacingF1 👊🏻 #KeepPushing #BrazilGP
Image

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izzy
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Wouter wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:56 pm
izzy wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:49 pm
Honda have been mentioned as the reason Red Bull/Max didn't win,
then when they do start to win they'll gradually not be mentioned at all.
Renault learned this lesson and bought Lotus
So Renault bought Lotus because RB never mentioned Renault?? #-o

".....then when they do start to win they'll gradually not be mentioned at all."
why do you think i said GRADUALLY ?

and yes Renault obviously worked out that Mercedes were getting collossal AVE, as I said, +$3,800,000,000 instead of being -$140,000,00- to be ignored or criticised. It's all great now, but look back at 2010-13 and see how much credit Renault got

i didn't say "never" either. But it's nothing against Max, or even Red Bull, just the natural economics of it

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Capharol
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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I disagree fully on this opinion, because they both know what they gt from eachother and 1 thing i learned from the Asian culture...... respect is what you get but have to give aswell.

and you know how often we heard the word renault engine? at the start maybe positive, but in the end they didn't want to mention the Renault name because, Renaut didn't want to be named due to the critisime they got after promising year after year and never ever delivered what they promised.
"we will be on par with Mercedes and/or Ferrari starting the new season" ...... no they weren't
"we will get the extra boost for the Q3 lap aswell" ..... No they didn't
"we will get x HP more by Y race"..... no they didn't or it was less as promised
"the engine will be reliable" ..... no it wasn't

this is what i remember from the Red Bull/Renault cooperation

IMO 2010-2013 the Renault engine was good enough, but it was the chassis (mostly) that brought them 4 championships
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.
"Most people seem to turn off their brain when they turn on the computer and log in to social media."

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IvailoStefanovBG
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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izzy wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:35 pm
Wouter wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:56 pm
izzy wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:49 pm
Honda have been mentioned as the reason Red Bull/Max didn't win,
then when they do start to win they'll gradually not be mentioned at all.
Renault learned this lesson and bought Lotus
So Renault bought Lotus because RB never mentioned Renault?? #-o

".....then when they do start to win they'll gradually not be mentioned at all."
why do you think i said GRADUALLY ?

and yes Renault obviously worked out that Mercedes were getting collossal AVE, as I said, +$3,800,000,000 instead of being -$140,000,00- to be ignored or criticised. It's all great now, but look back at 2010-13 and see how much credit Renault got

i didn't say "never" either. But it's nothing against Max, or even Red Bull, just the natural economics of it
Actually for all 4 years in turbo hybrid era with Renault Horner and Marco haven`t said so many good words for their engine supplier as they said this year with Honda. It must have been very difficult time for them. This year they seem so relaxed and confident and progress in car pace is obvious. And all this in FIRST year of partnership.....

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izzy
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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IvailoStefanovBG wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:31 am
Actually for all 4 years in turbo hybrid era with Renault Horner and Marco haven`t said so many good words for their engine supplier as they said this year with Honda. It must have been very difficult time for them. This year they seem so relaxed and confident and progress in car pace is obvious. And all this in FIRST year of partnership.....
Honda have been great this year. And Red Bull and Max have been making a big effort to say so, at least in the last 3 races or so. Back in 2015/16/17 everyone was terrible: McLaren were terrible, Renault had actually got worse instead of better, Red Bull were so terrible Mercedes even said they wouldn't supply an engine because of the public slagging off, and Honda were terrible. But they've all learned the lessons from it

But my point now is the numbers: the marketing departments count everything, like each second of exposure in each level of resolution, each mention of the brand, all the social media, everything, and they amalgamate that into an Advertising Value Equivalence figure (or they might have better ones perhaps) and set that against the cost. COST, which is what Honda have just been talking about. They've spent $140m so far i think? And they get far fewer mentions and less coverage than Red Bull, even now when the success is all new and everyone's making an effort.

The other oem's have all learned this lesson. The mentions they get are all directly of their Brand, and that's how F1 pays off for them, especially as they GET sponsorship instead of giving it, and they get prize money too. So, logically, the numbers must say to Honda that having their own team would be better, if they can do it right this time. Of course they might not be behaving with logic, like omg 2008 :wtf: :)

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izzy
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Capharol wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:07 am
this is what i remember from the Red Bull/Renault cooperation
IMO 2010-2013 the Renault engine was good enough, but it was the chassis (mostly) that brought them 4 championships
this is so much the point in fact. The whole concept of that car was based around the hot and cold blowing of the diffuser that Renault did, so cleverly, but Red Bull always presented it how you remember. In the end, over time, the same thing will gradually happen for Honda. Christian is a racing driver and so is Helmut, they're competitors by instinct, and so their own part will always get the spotlight, and their part is the chassis