General Honda F1 Topic

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
TNTHead
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Wouter wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:44 pm
Marti_EF3 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:19 pm
In sustained power during a race, Honda is clearly ahead of Renault. And for me it's better a strong engine on races than on Q mode.
Exactly @Marti !!
Without the huge leap of merc I believed we were facing this year a point where real convergence of the efficiency (which translates to power) of the three PU manufacturers would occur. That would mean Honda finally caught up and I think thats the case, which is very nice.

Dont know if we should discuss difference between Honda and Renault. What leaves me puzzled is where the power advantage of the merc comes from.If the efficiency of the ICE is almost maxed out where comes the huge leap from over one winter? Not found any plausible explanation yet.

Bill
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Mercedes power advantage is a myth not backed up by any data if you look at sector times they make significant proposition of lap times in slow and medium corners were pu does play an important role. In race they don't have a super weapon to draw to complete a passing maneuver .Rbr doesn't know we're Merc one lap advantage comes from

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/64736/re ... hind-.html

Here is what Tanabe thinks about pu when ask a direct question

TT: I think it’s a little bit difficult to tell the difference between PU power in the four PU manufacturers. Many functions related to the speed and lap time. We think we need to work a little bit more hard to catch up the top runner. The difference between Australia and here, the first race this year, mainly we cannot work on the big change because of the shutdown. Mainly reliability and minor changes. We had time to apply some things, even limited time. So, how can I say? Kind of housekeeping work. That’s it.

MMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMM
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Six years later and they are still rock bottom.

maguetox
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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TNTHead wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:38 pm
Wouter wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:44 pm
Marti_EF3 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:19 pm
In sustained power during a race, Honda is clearly ahead of Renault. And for me it's better a strong engine on races than on Q mode.
Exactly @Marti !!
Without the huge leap of merc I believed we were facing this year a point where real convergence of the efficiency (which translates to power) of the three PU manufacturers would occur. That would mean Honda finally caught up and I think thats the case, which is very nice.

Dont know if we should discuss difference between Honda and Renault. What leaves me puzzled is where the power advantage of the merc comes from.If the efficiency of the ICE is almost maxed out where comes the huge leap from over one winter? Not found any plausible explanation yet.
On winter testing the Mercedes advantage wasn't that clear, to me something happened over the shutdown period that Mercedes improve their car with a big leap, with rules pretty much the same of last year, the difference is to much, reminds me when there is a new set of rules and some one nail it and the other are clueless, something like that.

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Marti_EF3
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Maybe with the information of what Ferrari was doing with the PU, they found a more clever way to improve the performance, and maybe being legal, because no one is talking about some illegal tricks like they were with Ferrari...

ispano6
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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maguetox wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:55 pm
TNTHead wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:38 pm
Wouter wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:44 pm


Exactly @Marti !!
Without the huge leap of merc I believed we were facing this year a point where real convergence of the efficiency (which translates to power) of the three PU manufacturers would occur. That would mean Honda finally caught up and I think thats the case, which is very nice.

Dont know if we should discuss difference between Honda and Renault. What leaves me puzzled is where the power advantage of the merc comes from.If the efficiency of the ICE is almost maxed out where comes the huge leap from over one winter? Not found any plausible explanation yet.
On winter testing the Mercedes advantage wasn't that clear, to me something happened over the shutdown period that Mercedes improve their car with a big leap, with rules pretty much the same of last year, the difference is to much, reminds me when there is a new set of rules and some one nail it and the other are clueless, something like that.
It isn't a mystery any more. It's the rear suspension and some cheeky additive burning in low speed corner exits. The rest is balance.

TNTHead
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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ispano6 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:22 pm
maguetox wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:55 pm
TNTHead wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:38 pm


Without the huge leap of merc I believed we were facing this year a point where real convergence of the efficiency (which translates to power) of the three PU manufacturers would occur. That would mean Honda finally caught up and I think thats the case, which is very nice.

Dont know if we should discuss difference between Honda and Renault. What leaves me puzzled is where the power advantage of the merc comes from.If the efficiency of the ICE is almost maxed out where comes the huge leap from over one winter? Not found any plausible explanation yet.
On winter testing the Mercedes advantage wasn't that clear, to me something happened over the shutdown period that Mercedes improve their car with a big leap, with rules pretty much the same of last year, the difference is to much, reminds me when there is a new set of rules and some one nail it and the other are clueless, something like that.
It isn't a mystery any more. It's the rear suspension and some cheeky additive burning in low speed corner exits. The rest is balance.
Thanks for a direction. But this raises many questions which is probably better discussed at the Mercedes PU thread.

hkbruin
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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TNTHead wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:45 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:22 pm
maguetox wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:55 pm


On winter testing the Mercedes advantage wasn't that clear, to me something happened over the shutdown period that Mercedes improve their car with a big leap, with rules pretty much the same of last year, the difference is to much, reminds me when there is a new set of rules and some one nail it and the other are clueless, something like that.
It isn't a mystery any more. It's the rear suspension and some cheeky additive burning in low speed corner exits. The rest is balance.
Thanks for a direction. But this raises many questions which is probably better discussed at the Mercedes PU thread.
I think Honda needs to go out on a limb and throw every innovation they can possibly think of against the wall, and see what sticks and what doesn't. In the past Honda has been conservative and have approached the F1 rule makers to ask them what is allowed, what is grey, etc. They should just implement (perhaps under the guise of being lost in translation) whatever they "perceive" as legal and let the FIA deal with the aftermath. Isn't that the case with Mercedes oil burning and Ferrari's fuel flow sensor? The ramifications take at least a year and no one is penalized for past indiscretions. Ferrari gets away with a covert settlement and got a handful of podium finishes and a couple wins throughout the 2nd half season that ultimately affected Red Bull.

Does anyone know what came out of that meeting in the UK among the Honda brass and RBR? I want to hear that they are going to be balls to the wall.

McMika98
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Its been the same story every year, updates and talk of closing gap. Merc is another issue but to be less competitive than a Renault with no upgrades is just lame. I expected Honda new spec to leap frog Renault so Alpha Tauri would be top of midfield but they are way behind.

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etusch
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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hkbruin wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:09 pm
TNTHead wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:45 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:22 pm


It isn't a mystery any more. It's the rear suspension and some cheeky additive burning in low speed corner exits. The rest is balance.
Thanks for a direction. But this raises many questions which is probably better discussed at the Mercedes PU thread.
I think Honda needs to go out on a limb and throw every innovation they can possibly think of against the wall, and see what sticks and what doesn't. In the past Honda has been conservative and have approached the F1 rule makers to ask them what is allowed, what is grey, etc. They should just implement (perhaps under the guise of being lost in translation) whatever they "perceive" as legal and let the FIA deal with the aftermath. Isn't that the case with Mercedes oil burning and Ferrari's fuel flow sensor? The ramifications take at least a year and no one is penalized for past indiscretions. Ferrari gets away with a covert settlement and got a handful of podium finishes and a couple wins throughout the 2nd half season that ultimately affected Red Bull.

Does anyone know what came out of that meeting in the UK among the Honda brass and RBR? I want to hear that they are going to be balls to the wall.
Before the season, I think during winter testing, Honda said they asked fia somethings they want to apply their engine but fia didn't accepted. Honda is not Merc or Ferrari. So when they made that without asking, it can be banned immidiatly and if their concept of engine has more things builded up that new thing they can be hurt more.
I don't think Honda is behind any of others at race pace but maybe at peak power. Yes I want so see them as most powerful engine at both race pace and peak power. But I am happy with them, how they came here and how they are working.

TNTHead
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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hkbruin wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:09 pm
I think Honda needs to go out on a limb and throw every innovation they can possibly think of against the wall, and see what sticks and what doesn't. In the past Honda has been conservative and have approached the F1 rule makers to ask them what is allowed, what is grey, etc. They should just implement (perhaps under the guise of being lost in translation) whatever they "perceive" as legal and let the FIA deal with the aftermath. Isn't that the case with Mercedes oil burning and Ferrari's fuel flow sensor? The ramifications take at least a year and no one is penalized for past indiscretions. Ferrari gets away with a covert settlement and got a handful of podium finishes and a couple wins throughout the 2nd half season that ultimately affected Red Bull.

Does anyone know what came out of that meeting in the UK among the Honda brass and RBR? I want to hear that they are going to be balls to the wall.
Exactly, I think physically the ICE will be more less the same for the three manufacturers. May be some relevant differences at MGU-H and - K. As a rough estimate the PU's are principally converged. That makes the grey area the (big) differentiator.

If Merc gets their grey area solution approved and Honda not, as Etusch implies, that could mean that politics and power is determining the outcome. It is probably part of the F1 game.

It would then be better to not ask and just implement the solution, if they can get away with it. Still it leaves a bit of a sour taste because the one who plays by the rule is getting punished which is the other way around of course.

GhostF1
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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TNTHead wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:25 pm
hkbruin wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:09 pm
I think Honda needs to go out on a limb and throw every innovation they can possibly think of against the wall, and see what sticks and what doesn't. In the past Honda has been conservative and have approached the F1 rule makers to ask them what is allowed, what is grey, etc. They should just implement (perhaps under the guise of being lost in translation) whatever they "perceive" as legal and let the FIA deal with the aftermath. Isn't that the case with Mercedes oil burning and Ferrari's fuel flow sensor? The ramifications take at least a year and no one is penalized for past indiscretions. Ferrari gets away with a covert settlement and got a handful of podium finishes and a couple wins throughout the 2nd half season that ultimately affected Red Bull.

Does anyone know what came out of that meeting in the UK among the Honda brass and RBR? I want to hear that they are going to be balls to the wall.
Exactly, I think physically the ICE will be more less the same for the three manufacturers. May be some relevant differences at MGU-H and - K. As a rough estimate the PU's are principally converged. That makes the grey area the (big) differentiator.

If Merc gets their grey area solution approved and Honda not, as Etusch implies, that could mean that politics and power is determining the outcome. It is probably part of the F1 game.

It would then be better to not ask and just implement the solution, if they can get away with it. Still it leaves a bit of a sour taste because the one who plays by the rule is getting punished which is the other way around of course.
It's worth discussing the differences in ICE, there must be some notable ones, the Honda operates so unusually in comparison to the others and they seem confident their ICE is right up there and they believe Merc's engine advantage is limited to ERS systems. There is so much skip fire use and since Singapore 2019 with Spec 4 and the new fuel, this new behaviour that appears in certain modes that sounds like anti-lag back fire/crackle (Wazari named this as "secondary controlled combustion") hard to imagine the 4 manufacturers are level pegging in ICE efficiency/power.

I think we've seen enough to say during the race the Honda looks top tier, across both teams their speed at power sensitive sectors is either top of the chart or mixing it with the Mercs. Horner believes the chassis issue they are working to solve is costing them about 0.4-0.5 of a second per lap at Silverstone and over the race distance there, that's about a 20 second loss, Max was only 10-11 behind Lewis before the final pit, so even with conservative estimations, it's not unreasonable to suggest they'd be challenging for the win on merit if the car was behaving.

Cassius
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Where did Horner state that?

nzjrs
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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hkbruin wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:09 pm
TNTHead wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:45 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:22 pm


It isn't a mystery any more. It's the rear suspension and some cheeky additive burning in low speed corner exits. The rest is balance.
Thanks for a direction. But this raises many questions which is probably better discussed at the Mercedes PU thread.
I think Honda needs to go out on a limb and throw every innovation they can possibly think of against the wall, and see what sticks and what doesn't. In the past Honda has been conservative and have approached the F1 rule makers to ask them what is allowed, what is grey, etc. They should just implement (perhaps under the guise of being lost in translation) whatever they "perceive" as legal and let the FIA deal with the aftermath. Isn't that the case with Mercedes oil burning and Ferrari's fuel flow sensor? The ramifications take at least a year and no one is penalized for past indiscretions. Ferrari gets away with a covert settlement and got a handful of podium finishes and a couple wins throughout the 2nd half season that ultimately affected Red Bull.

Does anyone know what came out of that meeting in the UK among the Honda brass and RBR? I want to hear that they are going to be balls to the wall.
Don't forget they are prohibited from any in season Ice upgrades this year.

ispano6
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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nzjrs wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:06 am
hkbruin wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:09 pm
TNTHead wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:45 pm


Thanks for a direction. But this raises many questions which is probably better discussed at the Mercedes PU thread.
I think Honda needs to go out on a limb and throw every innovation they can possibly think of against the wall, and see what sticks and what doesn't. In the past Honda has been conservative and have approached the F1 rule makers to ask them what is allowed, what is grey, etc. They should just implement (perhaps under the guise of being lost in translation) whatever they "perceive" as legal and let the FIA deal with the aftermath. Isn't that the case with Mercedes oil burning and Ferrari's fuel flow sensor? The ramifications take at least a year and no one is penalized for past indiscretions. Ferrari gets away with a covert settlement and got a handful of podium finishes and a couple wins throughout the 2nd half season that ultimately affected Red Bull.

Does anyone know what came out of that meeting in the UK among the Honda brass and RBR? I want to hear that they are going to be balls to the wall.
Don't forget they are prohibited from any in season Ice upgrades this year.
Who cares if the dumbshits can't tell? They couldn't figure out Ferrari's cheat until how much later?

With regulations freezing performance improvements F1 is setting itself up for a bore fest that clearly benefits MB. Why don't teams lobby to freeze the championship winning team that clearly had a huge spending and time advantage over others? The fact that Honda progressed to surpass Ferrari and Renault is the only reason why F1 is even interesting. Honda may still have performance up its sleeve to gradually release as they weigh their reliability options and limits. Tanabe and Asaki are careful to unleash power so as to not damage the pu and the exhaust. The AUG 5th deadline for stated changes to homologated parts is upon them, and I'm certain the exhaust and ERS development were discussed as a pathway for next year's PU improvements along with accommodating the 2021 exhaust limit rule which will or has probably affected Honda's trick secondary combustion approach for 2021.