General Honda F1 Topic

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Zynerji
Zynerji
82
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

DChemTech wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:54 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:36 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:12 pm


Well, as it is in the American version of merit-based. Most civilized countries luckily do recognize that talent is something that needs to be nurtured, and even in a merit-based system, you need to help people unlock their potential. Red Bull is providing such assistance to Max, clearly, and not (adequately) to their second driver at the moment.

If you are of the opinion that talent should be able to nurture itself, just imagine how many potential Einsteins or Bachs likely died working the fields throughout history, and still, because there was noone around to recognize their talents or help them develop it, financially or otherwise.
Feeder series entire purpose of existence is for driver development.

F1 is for Butterflies, not Caterpillars.
I don't agree with that assessment. If I would compare it with a 'real' job, feeder series are your university degree - you are qualified enough to drive in the big league. But that does not mean you are just put in the car and told "good luck". Anyone coming fresh from university will need some time to adapt properly to their work life, and they will need support too to handle specific aspects - otherwise even proper A-grade students may not develop a successful career. Hell, the same goes for experienced hires moving to another company. A friend of mine recently switched employer after 10 years and was specifically hired by his new company for his expertise in a certain analysis - yet rather than dropping him right into action, he does get a couple of months training first. Because, you know, different machines, different colleagues, different protocols. For all the experience he has, he still does need proper support to utilize it. And it is no different for an F1 driver. Look at Vettel, even within a team where he has been for a long time.

BTW, I have a huge sympathy for Nico and I would like to see him in an RB - I would have liked that at the beginning of the season, or halfway last season, and I still would like that to happen - and I do think Albon may not be up to the task. But I do think that significant part of the underperformance as is is due to lack of support.
These are the top 20 race seats on the planet.

They are not for university grad entry level talent.

There is 100 other series' for those people.

If anything, I think the teams are too lenient (Haas/Grosjean, Romeo/Giov, RBR/Albon) already with sub-par talent wasting constructors points as the teams are waiting for their driver to hit puberty.

It's asinine.

As a professional business developer, I subscribe to the High Performance Team Management philosophy of "Aces in their places". Sadly, those drivers that I've named are hopelessly out of place.

DChemTech
DChemTech
41
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:31 am
Location: Delft, NL

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

Zynerji wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:41 am
DChemTech wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:54 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:36 pm


Feeder series entire purpose of existence is for driver development.

F1 is for Butterflies, not Caterpillars.
I don't agree with that assessment. If I would compare it with a 'real' job, feeder series are your university degree - you are qualified enough to drive in the big league. But that does not mean you are just put in the car and told "good luck". Anyone coming fresh from university will need some time to adapt properly to their work life, and they will need support too to handle specific aspects - otherwise even proper A-grade students may not develop a successful career. Hell, the same goes for experienced hires moving to another company. A friend of mine recently switched employer after 10 years and was specifically hired by his new company for his expertise in a certain analysis - yet rather than dropping him right into action, he does get a couple of months training first. Because, you know, different machines, different colleagues, different protocols. For all the experience he has, he still does need proper support to utilize it. And it is no different for an F1 driver. Look at Vettel, even within a team where he has been for a long time.

BTW, I have a huge sympathy for Nico and I would like to see him in an RB - I would have liked that at the beginning of the season, or halfway last season, and I still would like that to happen - and I do think Albon may not be up to the task. But I do think that significant part of the underperformance as is is due to lack of support.
These are the top 20 race seats on the planet.

They are not for university grad entry level talent.

There is 100 other series' for those people.

If anything, I think the teams are too lenient (Haas/Grosjean, Romeo/Giov, RBR/Albon) already with sub-par talent wasting constructors points as the teams are waiting for their driver to hit puberty.

It's asinine.

As a professional business developer, I subscribe to the High Performance Team Management philosophy of "Aces in their places". Sadly, those drivers that I've named are hopelessly out of place.
I assume you misunderstood my analogy. If coming out of F2 (or a similar class) successfully equals a university degree, then there are not much more than several tens of drivers available. And even within that group, you still need to nurture talent. Loads of support will not lead to success if someone has no talent. But someone with talent will not be successful without support. And let's not forget that in case of Albon, his practical experience in F1 is a bit over a year, with a team-change halfway. There is still plenty room for development, but without proper support, it's not going to happen. Even in the top 20 seats worldwide. Now, Albon -may- not have sufficient talent, but regardless of whether he has, but from what we see, he may not have sufficiently been given the support to really tap into it. That is not to say that he would be successful if they gave him the same level of support as, say, Stroll. Maybe not, and maybe he really does not belong in F1. Like I agree with you that probably Gio does not belong there, and Grosjean certainly does not belong there anymore (but he had 10 years to show he did, rather than 1).
I'll leave it at that, as this is in the end a Honda topic, and not a who's talented enough one.

User avatar
Marti_EF3
292
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:45 pm
Location: Spain

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

Talking about Honda drivers, I think Tsunoda is worth a chance on Kvyat's seat next year if he gets the SL this year. I think he have great potential, is agressive overtaking and is able to nurse the tires pretty well. And maybe a Japanese driver will be helpful too with keeping Honda in F1

Lock2nl
Lock2nl
8
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:16 am

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

Basically, you are correct. However, as a business owner I do know the power of my shareholders too. The Red Bull brand is owned by two major ones. One has been out of the picture in RBR for a long time. But now that there is Thai driver, there is a big reason to put him in the second seat if the other academy drivers do not fit in anymore.
The whole issue about the second driver boils down to two problems: poor driver academy management and a 'too talented' first driver.

The first problem is quite complex. And it is directly related to the style Marko applies in running his 'academy'. With the explicit wording of 'his'..

The second problem sadly is a luxury problem. Red Bull desparately needs a Bottas. But nobody currently good enough for that seat has insufficient alternatives to chose for an RBR seat next to Max. The only one I can think of is the Hulk, and probably very soon Perez as well.

Signing 'a Bottas' will only happen when Marko no longer sticks to his faulty dogmas in running his academy.
If he persists, it again creates a sur place leading to the decision to keep Albon for 2021. Probably with the explicit message to improve within the first six races. Otherwise he will be ditched.

I do think Marko's position is being discussed within RBR. There is something that tells me another person will take over the academy, enabling Marko to 'fully concentrate' on the F1 team and the relationship with Honda.

DChemTech
DChemTech
41
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:31 am
Location: Delft, NL

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

Lock2nl wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:10 am
Basically, you are correct. However, as a business owner I do know the power of my shareholders too. The Red Bull brand is owned by two major ones. One has been out of the picture in RBR for a long time. But now that there is Thai driver, there is a big reason to put him in the second seat if the other academy drivers do not fit in anymore.
The whole issue about the second driver boils down to two problems: poor driver academy management and a 'too talented' first driver.

The first problem is quite complex. And it is directly related to the style Marko applies in running his 'academy'. With the explicit wording of 'his'..

The second problem sadly is a luxury problem. Red Bull desparately needs a Bottas. But nobody currently good enough for that seat has insufficient alternatives to chose for an RBR seat next to Max. The only one I can think of is the Hulk, and probably very soon Perez as well.

Signing 'a Bottas' will only happen when Marko no longer sticks to his faulty dogmas in running his academy.
If he persists, it again creates a sur place leading to the decision to keep Albon for 2021. Probably with the explicit message to improve within the first six races. Otherwise he will be ditched.

I do think Marko's position is being discussed within RBR. There is something that tells me another person will take over the academy, enabling Marko to 'fully concentrate' on the F1 team and the relationship with Honda.
I hope you are right on the last part; RBR seems to be missing out on the talents lately, with the Ferrari driver academy being a lot better stocked. Part of that may be the general attractiveness of Ferrari for drivers, but I presume the way that Marko et al. have been dealing with drivers may play a part too. Of course, any driver that can sign at RBR will take it if the alternative is no academy - but those that have a choice between RBR and competitors...

gshevlin
gshevlin
22
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:33 pm

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

One of the purposes of leadership is to ensure that you get the very best out of your team members, employees, suppliers etc.
The driver is the most important employee.
The Red Bull approach to drivers has always looked to me like a variant of Sink Or Swim. In the business world, where I have lived for 40+ years, that can also be described as Hit Or Miss. It is effectively abdicating on some aspects of leadership, and leaving the performance of team members to chance.
If Red Bull's attitude is that every driver on their books has to be a Max Verstappen or out they go, they are not doing their job properly. Right now, they persist in shuffling drivers like cards in a poker game, and you can see the results. They have no consistent number 2 driver in the main team who can approach Max's speed in qualifying or races, take points off of Mercedes, and get in the way of the Mercedes race strategy.
Red Bull Racing is effectively two one-car teams right now. This is a sub-optimal situation, and it is nothing to do with the quality of the Drivers. it is entirely down to the Red Bull driver management approach.
BTW I think this discussion probably needs to be bumped to the Red Bull team thread, since it doesn't have a lot to do with Honda.

Lock2nl
Lock2nl
8
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:16 am

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

I agree it does not specifically concern Honda. However, wrong driver choices does affect Honda. And, Honda want a Japanese driver in at least one out of four seats. It may in fact be of vital importance to keep up the good relationship with Honda to seriously consider a Japanese driver. To be honoust, there's not that much lost if Kvyat moves elsewhere, to be replaced by a guy like Tsunoda or something...

User avatar
HPD
388
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:06 pm

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

Marti_EF3 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:02 am
Talking about Honda drivers, I think Tsunoda is worth a chance on Kvyat's seat next year if he gets the SL this year.
He's fourth now, he only needs to finish sixth to get the SL.

Image

User avatar
Big Tea
124
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

I enjoyed watching him last week, but I don't know he is F1 ready yet. Other drivers lost out through tyres for his win, which is fair enough as he looked after his and earned it. Also looking back at his record other than the Japan series he has hardly been stellar.

I can see the attraction of a Japanese driver with Honda, both to reward them and to gather more support from home, and in particular Honda Boardroom, but IF (not saying he is not) he is not the right choice, could this have the opposite effect?

Me, on a pure personal view, I think he should get a test at least, but there are maybe five others that should also be considered.
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

User avatar
Marti_EF3
292
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:45 pm
Location: Spain

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

He's still young. Next year maybe it's too soon, but if he gets the SL this year, better. I've been following him since the F3, and with an average to low team he scored many points and a win. His teamate finished the season with 0 points with the same car... Also he had some bad luck with races where he was podium or even victory contender, if not, he would be right there to fight for the F2 championship. A lot of people talk about Schwartzman f.e. and he's not that good managing tires or even overtaking. Well, maybe it's because I'd love to see a Japanese driver with Honda again, but that kid have a bright future if given enough support

User avatar
HPD
388
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:06 pm

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

Tsunoda already has a secured F1 seat.
Franz: "First of all, Red Bull and Honda are supporting Tsunoda because he is a fantastic rider. He is a very talented rider, he has so many qualities that he showed in Formla 3 last year and that he is showing again this year."

"I remember the race in Austria, when he raced in wet track conditions. He was leading the standings, he was leading the race, but due to a radio failure he was called to the pits too late. To pit stop, but clearly it was too late. And anyway he finished second. Then he won the race at Silverstone. "

"He is still improving his performances, he is becoming more and more experienced and I expect to have him, sooner or later, in Alphatauri, of course."

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-to ... content=it

User avatar
Marti_EF3
292
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:45 pm
Location: Spain

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

Great news then! If he manages to not only take the SL but also finish 4th or above, I expect him to take the AT seat next year :D

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
472
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

I know u guys want another Japanese drive but i hope he is not turned into comedy like Sato, Nakajima, Yamamoto, kobayashi!! We lift them up and drop them down.

User avatar
etusch
144
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:34 am
I know u guys want another Japanese drive but i hope he is not turned into comedy like Sato, Nakajima, Yamamoto, kobayashi!! We lift them up and drop them down.
I like Sato. I think he could be better than a few of current driver if he were in F1 now.
I liked Anthony Davidson too, in time of Bar Honda and wanted to see him racing but he was not so fast when he was in race...

GhostF1
GhostF1
197
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:11 am

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:34 am
I know u guys want another Japanese drive but i hope he is not turned into comedy like Sato, Nakajima, Yamamoto, kobayashi!! We lift them up and drop them down.
Sato would be interesting to see in current F1 machinery, he had a great year in 04 at BAR. Being at Super Aguri didn't help the end of his career, they struggled from their inception.

And I like Yamamoto as well, he's had some great Super GT races with Team Kunimitsu, and his test at Suzuka last year with Toro Rosso went way better than I had expected.

Seeing Tsunoda enter F1 at AT would be very interesting for sure! Give him a shot, it's what AT are sort of for. And to be honest, I half expect it to be a condition of Honda's to remain in F1 with Red Bull.