General Honda F1 Topic

[Wouter]

QUALIFYING

A dramatic and delayed qualifying session at the Turkish Grand Prix saw Max agonisingly miss out on pole position but both Aston Martin Red Bull Racing drivers will start from the top four in Istanbul. It took 70 minutes to complete the first part of qualifying due to heavy rain that made the track unsafe, with early running on intermediate tyres giving way to full wets, but aquaplaning caused the session to be suspended for nearly an hour. When Q1 restarted there was under seven minutes on the clock, and nobody had improved when Romain Grosjean went off at Turn 1 to bring out another red flag. With three and a half minutes remaining it was an intense end to the session, and Daniil unfortunately spun at Turn 3, resulting in him being eliminated. Q2 ran to time but tyre choices were difficult, with some teams opting for intermediates and others for full wets. Max and Alex excelled to finish 1-2 in that session, but Pierre was unable to switch the tyres on enough in the cold conditions and was knocked out in 15th place. In the top ten shootout, Max was instantly quickest and looked set for pole position having topped every session throughout the weekend. However, as other teams switched to intermediate tyres and found time, Max was brought in to change to that compound and couldn’t get temperature into them as quickly as he was stuck in traffic, ending up missing out by just 0.3s. Max will start second to Lance Stroll, while Alex put in his personal best lap right at the end of the session and will line-up in fourth place alongside Sergio Perez, giving both strong starting positions for the race.


TOYOHARU TANABE
TECHNICAL DIRECTOR, HONDA F1

After the track proved to be quite slippery yesterday in the dry, today rain affected conditions even more. We did limited running in FP3 and then rain fell heavily before qualifying, then stopped and started throughout the session, with Q1 halted for a long time when conditions were impossible. This made it very difficult for drivers and teams to judge the state of the track at any one time. Given that he had been quickest in all sessions from FP1 to Q2, it was a bit of a shame that Max Verstappen just missed pole in Q3. However, he and his Aston Martin Red Bull Racing team-mate Alex Albon still secured a very positive result in second and fourth places on the grid. For Scuderia AlphaTauri, Daniil Kvyat spun in Q1 and Pierre Gasly also had a difficult afternoon. However, it’s only the race that really matters and we expect to see all four drivers finish higher up the order than their grid positions tomorrow. It could be a tricky afternoon because there is a possibility for more rain, but we will prepare as well as possible and take into account what we were able to learn in today’s wet session.

[Wouter]

RACE REVIEW

A dramatic Turkish Grand Prix ended up as a case of what might have been for the Honda-powered teams as we picked up points with both Aston Martin Red Bull Racing cars. Pierre was forced to start from the back of the grid after we planned to change his power unit overnight but the reversed the decision, and he joined the rest of the field in using the full wet tyres at the start following rain in the hour before the race. When the lights went out it was a fight for grip on a track that had been slippery all weekend, and Max and Alex both struggled off the line but pulled off strong moves in the opening corners to run fourth and fifth respectively. The two Scuderia AlphaTauri drivers also had impressive opening laps to gain a number of positions, running just outside the top ten. The first challenge was timing when the track had improved enough to switch to intermediate tyres, Max and Alex were both more comfortable on the full wets and were quickest on track once in clear air, with the lead trio of Lance Stroll, Sergio Perez and Sebastian Vettel making their pit stops. Daniil stopped on lap eight for intermediates alongside a number of other drivers so rejoined still outside the points, while Pierre came in two laps later and lost a bit of ground. With Kevin Magnussen running long, the top ten were allowed to pull far clear as those behind got held up at this point behind the Haas. Max made his pit stop on lap 11 and set off after the top two - emerging just between Perez and Vettel - and Alex stopped on lap 12 but rejoined behind Vettel and Lewis Hamilton. After a lap under the Virtual Safety Car, Alex turned his intermediate tyres on quickly and cleared Hamilton into Turn 12 before diving down the inside of Vettel at Turn 7 with an excellent move to take P4. Sadly the race started to unravel from there as Max - the fastest man on track - spun trying to pass Perez for second place, needing to take on a new set of intermediates as a result after dropping behind Alex, Vettel and Hamilton. He was then stuck in traffic further back despite his pace, leaving Alex to take up the charge. After closing in quickly on the two leaders, Alex was in a strong position but started to lose grip from his tyres as the track dried out. A number of drivers chose to stop for new intermediates as well as they wore out, Pierre doing so on lap 33 but Daniil pushing on with a one-stop strategy. Alex then had a spin at Turn 4 on his old tyres and had to take on fresh intermediates on lap 34, climbing up to fifth place after passing Stroll - struggling on his new tyres - but then losing out to Carlos Sainz. Max climbed back into the top three but made one more pit stop and rejoined in seventh place behind Alex, the pair trying to chase down the Ferraris ahead but struggling more for pace as the track continued to dry. Despite another spin, Max then passed Alex with seven laps remaining and the pair came home close together in sixth and seventh to pick up 14 points. After splitting strategies - with Daniil one-stopping and Pierre making two stops - the AlphaTauri pair stayed out of trouble but the field had been split by Magnussen’s strategy early on. Although they were less than two seconds apart, 12th and 13th was the final result.

Today, the Istanbul Park track again produced difficult conditions as it rained prior to the start and, with low temperatures, the surface never really dried until the end. This meant that tyre management was the most critical factory. It was rather disappointing that the Aston Martin Red Bull Racing pair could only finish sixth and seventh as we had seen over the weekend that they had the pace to do better than that, but this was an unpredictable race. As for the Scuderia AlphaTauri drivers, they both had a difficult time, especially Pierre starting from the back and with overtaking proving tricky, they were unable to get into the points. Now we will just work hard and focus on the final three races of the season with the aim of ending the year with some good results. Finally, on behalf of Honda, our congratulations go to Lewis Hamilton. He took his seventh title in the best possible way, winning a difficult race from sixth on the grid – a great achievement.

[Sieper]

On the one hand I like these updates from Honda, on the other hand it seems like they are on the outside commenting, not as part of the team. Don’t know what to think of that.

[Wouter]

On the one hand I like these updates from Honda, on the other hand it seems like they are on the outside commenting, not as part of the team. Don’t know what to think of that.

I didn't quote everything from the Honda site, just the statements from Honda.
Here you can also read what the drivers said about the race and qualifying at the Honda site.

Since this is the General Honda topic, I only post the quotes from Honda here.
What the AlphaTauri and RBR drivers / team leaders have said actually belongs in the SAT and RBR topic.

https://en.hondaracingf1.com/races/2020 ... qualifying
https://en.hondaracingf1.com/races/2020 ... racereview

[mzso]

I wonder if there's any chance that Honda will change its mind if next year's PU proves to on par with Mercedes.

If I were Red Bull I'd try to convince them to stay one more year (it sounds like a freeze is coming in 2023 anyway).

Even if it's at a much reduced budget, and I'd found further PU development as needed.

[Sieper]

I think Marko is now on his way to Japan to find a way, if they are willing, to achieve some sort of cooperation passed 2021. Too bad yesterday’s race fell apart. Not happy about that.

[etusch]

I wonder if there's any chance that Honda will change its mind if next year's PU proves to on par with Mercedes.

If I were Red Bull I'd try to convince them to stay one more year (it sounds like a freeze is coming in 2023 anyway).

Even if it's at a much reduced budget, and I'd found further PU development as needed.

Maybe they can be convinced if Redbull runs to WDC next year. I think it is less possible even in that condition. But next year, Redbull will push harder to convince Honda to stay if they would be best package out there

[Wouter]

[JordanMugen]

I think Marko is now on his way to Japan to find a way, if they are willing, to achieve some sort of cooperation passed 2021. Too bad yesterday’s race fell apart. Not happy about that.

How about if Red Bull pays the 12m GBP customer PU fee-equivalent for each team (so 24m GBP) and then Honda puts in 24m GBP, making a total power unit budget of 48m GBP? Assuming the current PU budget is nearer to 75m GBP (100m USD) that would still be quite a cut-back in budget, but not a disastrously small budget.

Obviously both the teams would then only have relatively minor Honda branding on them.

[Big Tea]

I think Marko is now on his way to Japan to find a way, if they are willing, to achieve some sort of cooperation passed 2021. Too bad yesterday’s race fell apart. Not happy about that.

How about if Red Bull pays the 12m GBP customer PU fee-equivalent for each team (so 24m GBP) and then Honda puts in 24m GBP, making a total power unit budget of 48m GBP? Assuming the current PU budget is nearer to 75m GBP (100m USD) that would still be quite a cut-back in budget, but not a disastrously small budget.

Obviously both the teams would then only have relatively minor Honda branding on them.

Looking at that as an accountant might, Red Bull get engines, no problem, what do Honda get for what they put in?

The car is called red bull or Alpha (cen)Tauri, it may have the Honda name on, but what will the engine be called?
Honda put in 24 million, plus the current engine plus plant and materials, what do they get for it?

Will it be a good training ground for staff? Will they be able to keep what they learn to themselves if they do not have full and sole control of the facility? Will they be heading in the direction Honda want the training to go?

Will it be good publicity? Even though they had a good relationship with RBR they are aware of the use of Renault's name when things were not rosy, so it is a risk.

I would love to see it happen, but will Honda see it as worth while return on the cost and not sully their name?

[Sieper]

Renault has never upheld their part of the bargain. They only got worse. It came to a point thy explicitly apologized. It seems that Renault is now finally finding its way forward. Honda has moved closer and closer to keeping what was promised, is the aim.

What can they win? The championship. Does that matter, not as much as for Mercedes, selling AMG (badged) cars for a far bigger profit than the normal versions of the same car. But perhaps it does still matter for their legacy of excellence and Motorsports. The decision to stop was made already. It is just RBR trying to keep a viable spot as a contender and perhaps the part of Honda (that wanted to continue) trying to uphold, assist them with it.

[Big Tea]

Renault has never upheld their part of the bargain. They only got worse. It came to a point thy explicitly apologized. It seems that Renault is now finally finding its way forward. Honda has moved closer and closer to keeping what was promised, is the aim.

What can they win? The championship. Does that matter, not as much as for Mercedes, selling AMG (badged) cars for a far bigger profit than the normal versions of the same car. But perhaps it does still matter for their legacy of excellence and Motorsports. The decision to stop was made already. It is just RBR trying to keep a viable spot as a contender and perhaps the part of Honda (that wanted to continue) trying to uphold, assist them with it.

I am 100% sure that the F1 part of Honda wanted (and still does) to continue, but it seems things are controlled by not mechanical people, but in offices that look at lists and targets, who have decided that according to this page, 'we' would be better off closing that part and moving to this target which will earn us more in that row. (be it cash or kudos)

[etusch]

Renault has never upheld their part of the bargain. They only got worse. It came to a point thy explicitly apologized. It seems that Renault is now finally finding its way forward. Honda has moved closer and closer to keeping what was promised, is the aim.

What can they win? The championship. Does that matter, not as much as for Mercedes, selling AMG (badged) cars for a far bigger profit than the normal versions of the same car. But perhaps it does still matter for their legacy of excellence and Motorsports. The decision to stop was made already. It is just RBR trying to keep a viable spot as a contender and perhaps the part of Honda (that wanted to continue) trying to uphold, assist them with it.

I am 100% sure that the F1 part of Honda wanted (and still does) to continue, but it seems things are controlled by not mechanical people, but in offices that look at lists and targets, who have decided that according to this page, 'we' would be better off closing that part and moving to this target which will earn us more in that row. (be it cash or kudos)

It looks like a bit to 2009. In normal conditions maybe engineers has more affect on how to do things at Honda. For example they refused building diesel engine (if I don't know wrong) until some degree of it's popularity.
But when it comes to crisis which makes accounting more important to be alive, then marketing and accounting people have more affect on decisions. Engineers want more Technology others want more money

[Zynerji]

Honda's press release about leaving read as if it was simply that they could no longer concentrate their most brilliant engineers on F1 because the talent deficit ruins their new, breakthrough areas of exploration.

[PlatinumZealot]

Renault has never upheld their part of the bargain. They only got worse. It came to a point thy explicitly apologized. It seems that Renault is now finally finding its way forward. Honda has moved closer and closer to keeping what was promised, is the aim.

What can they win? The championship. Does that matter, not as much as for Mercedes, selling AMG (badged) cars for a far bigger profit than the normal versions of the same car. But perhaps it does still matter for their legacy of excellence and Motorsports. The decision to stop was made already. It is just RBR trying to keep a viable spot as a contender and perhaps the part of Honda (that wanted to continue) trying to uphold, assist them with it.

I am 100% sure that the F1 part of Honda wanted (and still does) to continue, but it seems things are controlled by not mechanical people, but in offices that look at lists and targets, who have decided that according to this page, 'we' would be better off closing that part and moving to this target which will earn us more in that row. (be it cash or kudos)

It looks like a bit to 2009. In normal conditions maybe engineers has more affect on how to do things at Honda. For example they refused building diesel engine (if I don't know wrong) until some degree of it's popularity.
But when it comes to crisis which makes accounting more important to be alive, then marketing and accounting people have more affect on decisions. Engineers want more Technology others want more money

They also have their eye on their immediate competitors, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai et al. They would be thinking, If those guys aren't burning a hole in their pockets with F1 why should we? Not to mention Toyota and Nissan stealing a march (no pun intended) in the American EV market.