General Honda F1 Topic

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
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ispano6
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I read an interview with Yamamoto that no staff from HRD Sakura are going to Red Bull. Some local staff in Milton Keynes will move to Red Bull's facilities but Honda F1 UK location in Milton Keynes is going to be closed. Asaki said there currently isn't a contract for HRD Sakura to continue developing behind the scenes in 2022 and that there isn't a contract for them to work on E10 fuels but are working on it anyway.

Lock2nl
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Elsewhere I read they were willing to support RBR on a contract basis.
But you can bet such contracts will become less and less likely when time goes by because reallocation of Sakura resources to other projects was probably the most important reason to quit F1. So Sakura staff was never meant to move to RBR. Honda needs them elsewhere. Not even mentioning how difficult it is for Japanese engineers to quit Honda and go overseas...

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Big Tea
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Lock2nl wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:02 pm
Elsewhere I read they were willing to support RBR on a contract basis.
But you can bet such contracts will become less and less likely when time goes by because reallocation of Sakura resources to other projects was probably the most important reason to quit F1. So Sakura staff was never meant to move to RBR. Honda needs them elsewhere. Not even mentioning how difficult it is for Japanese engineers to quit Honda and go overseas...
But "resources" include income, the more income the more resources. If directly as payment from Red Bull or indirectly as knowledge input 'reflected glory', side projects, or even just PR and sales networks established via the F1 side, it is not necessarily a drain on resource, it could well be seen as an entry in the gains column
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So don't kick.

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PlatinumZealot
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It can be seen as a good deal keeping in mind the engine freeze was not on the table at the time of Honda's decision to leave. With the freeze its an easier bargain to allocate some small resource to grow young engineers or farm out retired ones, to have their hand at learning the engines and exploring alternative fuels.

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:32 pm
It can be seen as a good deal keeping in mind the engine freeze was not on the table at the time of Honda's decision to leave. With the freeze its an easier bargain to allocate some small resource to grow young engineers or farm out retired ones, to have their hand at learning the engines and exploring alternative fuels.
Yeah, I could imagine it will be "engineer exchange" similar to student exchange as the IP is belong to both parties, so will be transparent and interesting for new engineers. They also can learn culture and language, so it is good idea and solution. The problem is, the 3rd parties chosen may benefits from those IP and sold it somewhere as part of their service to other customers, but look like Honda dont care and leave their engine similar to F20C or K24 fate,. :mrgreen:

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Big Tea wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:19 pm
Lock2nl wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:02 pm
Elsewhere I read they were willing to support RBR on a contract basis.
But you can bet such contracts will become less and less likely when time goes by because reallocation of Sakura resources to other projects was probably the most important reason to quit F1. So Sakura staff was never meant to move to RBR. Honda needs them elsewhere. Not even mentioning how difficult it is for Japanese engineers to quit Honda and go overseas...
But "resources" include income, the more income the more resources. If directly as payment from Red Bull or indirectly as knowledge input 'reflected glory', side projects, or even just PR and sales networks established via the F1 side, it is not necessarily a drain on resource, it could well be seen as an entry in the gains column
Normally you are correct. But this time, they need the best engineers to make the switch . As the-race said: .."because of a fundamental shift in its automotive focus and the resource required to achieve that".

Honda is not interested in short term income. They are worried about the future of the entire brand. My impression is that they will use all knowledge available to bounce back. With young and old. And they will all be dedicated.

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ispano6
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Translation of the Q&A with Asaki from his press conference:

How do you rate the results of the Bahrain test, which ended in 1st and 2nd place on the final day?
It went fairly well. Like in previous years of experience, Mercedes is probably holding back. In that sense, I don't know what they are doing, so I don't know yet in comparison with the other manufacturers, but we can say that it was a very meaningful test for us because we were able to perform various tests as planned.

Earlier it was mentioned that Mercedes was playing the shamisen, but wasn't Honda playing the shamisen? (meaning sandbagging or difficult to read)
That's a secret (laughing)

There seems to be very high confidence in Tsunoda. He says he's aiming for a world champion, but how likely is he to be a champion this season?
Fast drivers have a different mentality than normal people so really don't know. However, based on what he's said and accomplished thus far, it seems that he is able to achieve results that I have not seen with Japanese F1 drivers so far, and I think that he has the ability. The teams that can win the series championship this season are Mercedes, Red Bull, not sure who's next (so it will be quite difficult). However, as drivers move between teams during the season, I don't know what will happen, but I'm hoping that he will eventually become the champion.

With the season being 23 races with an allowance of 3 PUs, it looks like some damage control will be required. How much percentage in performance reduction is necessary to assure 3 engines used for the season?
There are various types of damage control. If the reciprocating part, piston sleeve, etc. are damaged, the output may decrease. However, I am not so worried because it has improved since last season by adopting plating from Kumamoto Seisakusho.
Rather, the scary thing is if something causes it to break into pieces. If it is confirmed by a bench test etc., there may be a situation where you have to reduce it intentionally rather than when the horsepower decreases so that it does not reach that point. You may be able to fight your opponent on a case-by-case basis, by reducing some power, or put in a new one with a penalty. I think it depends on the situation.

Will Honda carry out future development by transferring power unit technology to Red Bull from next season?
It depends on the contract. Until now, it was Honda's power unit, so everything was controlled by Honda. It will be Red Bull's power unit from next year onwards, so they will decide what to do and what not to do. On top of that, if there is something you would like to ask Honda, we will do it on a contract basis. Specifically, even if it is frozen, if the regulation changes, it must be dealt with. Although it is before the contract, the development around that is starting, but in any case it depends on the contract.

Wouldn't lowering the position of the cam and widening the cylinder bank angle of the valve mean that the combustion chamber expands and it becomes difficult to burn?
The first purpose of changing that is power, so that's not the case. The design concept is to do things that are compatible, and if they are not compatible, take the horsepower.

Is it okay to understand that the combustion speed has been increased as a specific method of increasing horsepower?
There are many things that can be done, but as I said earlier, increasing the crankshaft output reduces the exhaust energy. Thus, make the combustion chamber the best shape while considering how to make it compatible. Therefore, if it is necessary to change the cylinder bank angle of the valve, the order is to change everything including the cam layout.

It was said by Yamamoto MD a lot of effort was put into the MGU-H because the exhaust temperature drops when the combustion efficiency is increased. What kind of approach did you take?
The MGU-H continues to work to improve the efficiency of turbines and compressors. It has been improved little by little. With that said, it is difficult to regain the amount of development that was lost last year, so there are more different ideas. That alone will not be enough to generate the power recovery that we were losing out last year, so we've implemented a lot more different ideas.

What was the approximate gap to the 2020 Mercedes PU?
There is no doubt that we were behind. We can't tell how much the difference is without looking at the other party's data, which only the FIA ​​can do. We used calculations to predict it, but in reality the error margin is so large that we do not know exactly. However, it is the impression of the first race in Austria that there is no doubt that we were weaker.

Does that mean the gap in power was large?
There was a difference in power, and other factors were also large. In the final race, the car body side also improved considerably, and we won even though there was a power difference.
Last edited by ispano6 on Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Wouter
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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ispano6 wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:35 am
Translation of the Q&A with Asaki from his press conference: .........................
Thank you @Ispano.

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Big Tea
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Lock2nl wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:07 am
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:19 pm
Lock2nl wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:02 pm
Elsewhere I read they were willing to support RBR on a contract basis.
But you can bet such contracts will become less and less likely when time goes by because reallocation of Sakura resources to other projects was probably the most important reason to quit F1. So Sakura staff was never meant to move to RBR. Honda needs them elsewhere. Not even mentioning how difficult it is for Japanese engineers to quit Honda and go overseas...
But "resources" include income, the more income the more resources. If directly as payment from Red Bull or indirectly as knowledge input 'reflected glory', side projects, or even just PR and sales networks established via the F1 side, it is not necessarily a drain on resource, it could well be seen as an entry in the gains column
Normally you are correct. But this time, they need the best engineers to make the switch . As the-race said: .."because of a fundamental shift in its automotive focus and the resource required to achieve that".


Honda is not interested in short term income. They are worried about the future of the entire brand. My impression is that they will use all knowledge available to bounce back. With young and old. And they will all be dedicated.
They have many ICE engineers they would like to keep but it is not 'cool' in the industry right now, so the only options really are something like this or education
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So don't kick.

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PlatinumZealot
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Seems that they tuned the engine mainly for horsepower and as usual the MGUH requirment is important but already sussessed out with turbine and compressor upgrades.

What I gather from this, correct me if I am wrong.

Better fuel efficiency = more power and bit more air flow. => Colder exhaust.. => adjust the turbocharger to smaller or more efficient.

Adjust to a more "open" turbine => more power from the crank =>> less MGUH power =>> do not adjust to an open turbine yet => tune the combustion first.

More MGUH power signals that compressor will also have more available power since their have the same power source =>> more air flow / pressure =>> could be less power if not dialed back or controlled.. => adust compressor wheel to be smaller or more efficient and spin slower.

Dunno. Something like that.

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Pany
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Ahahah, more air with smaller size and reduced revolution? would be a dream
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:48 am
Seems that they tuned the engine mainly for horsepower and as usual the MGUH requirment is important but already sussessed out with turbine and compressor upgrades.

What I gather from this, correct me if I am wrong.

Better fuel efficiency = more power and bit more air flow. => Colder exhaust.. => adjust the turbocharger to smaller or more efficient.

Adjust to a more "open" turbine => more power from the crank =>> less MGUH power =>> do not adjust to an open turbine yet => tune the combustion first.

More MGUH power signals that compressor will also have more available power since their have the same power source =>> more air flow / pressure =>> could be less power if not dialed back or controlled.. => adust compressor wheel to be smaller or more efficient and spin slower.

Dunno. Something like that.

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I keep coming back to this on the Honda due to the cackle, but if high efficiency lowers exhaust temps, thus lowering MGUH power, is it possible that they "burp" the exhaust valve a tiny amount during the power stroke? Just small, loud, hot jets into the exhaust pipe, followed by the cooler spent gasses on the exhaust stroke?

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Zynerji wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:27 pm
I keep coming back to this on the Honda due to the cackle, but if high efficiency lowers exhaust temps, thus lowering MGUH power, is it possible that they "burp" the exhaust valve a tiny amount during the power stroke? Just small, loud, hot jets into the exhaust pipe, followed by the cooler spent gasses on the exhaust stroke?
The heat generated from combustion can be absorbed by either of two devices, the crankshaft or the turbine, you don't get more heat than what you generate from burning fuel in the combustion chamber, that heat does work. You can only extract so much work from this heat, and if you bias the turbine, then the crank will receive less energy, if you bias the crank the the turbine will receive less energy.
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Wouter
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godlameroso wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:43 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:27 pm
I keep coming back to this on the Honda due to the cackle, but if high efficiency lowers exhaust temps, thus lowering MGUH power, is it possible that they "burp" the exhaust valve a tiny amount during the power stroke? Just small, loud, hot jets into the exhaust pipe, followed by the cooler spent gasses on the exhaust stroke?
The heat generated from combustion can be absorbed by either of two devices, the crankshaft or the turbine, you don't get more heat than what you generate from burning fuel in the combustion chamber, that heat does work. You can only extract so much work from this heat, and if you bias the turbine, then the crank will receive less energy, if you bias the crank the the turbine will receive less energy.

Could you please continue this conversation in the "Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software" topic where it belongs?
This topic is more or less for general Honda things.