2018 pre-season testing thread

[Juzh]

As for the mercedes V6. Name one area in which newey is incorrect in that statement:

Mercedes is superior in all disciplines. Engine power, fuel consumption, drivability, MGU-H recuperation

I'll wait.
He should have added reliability on top of that.

No need to wait - he's correct that the Mercedes is the best engine on the grid. But that's not their fault. They spent a shed load of cash developing the best engine on the grid so they are quite rightly reaping the rewards of that. Perhaps RedBull should develop their own engine if they're not happy. They've spent several years moaning about Renault so I say "shut up and put up". Show us how great RedBull is and build the entire package just like Mercedes and Ferrari.

F1 is about who can build the best car. Not just the best aero package or just the best engine but the best car. Mercedes have done that for several years and won the titles to prove it. Ferrari came close last year but lost their way mid season. RedBull just moaned. A lot. It's got very boring to listen to.

Mercedes have had more than enough success to excuse their extraordinary spending. Now It's time to change, and I hope liberty will have the balls to do so. Engine needs to be less of a differentiator than it is now (complelety engine formula atm, 2017 aero regs had miniscule impact as we can see) and also be much more simple, just as newey says. Otherwise we can safely assume quite literally no one will beat mercedes for the forseable future (as in as long as the current V6 persists, and possibly after 2021 if changes are not big enough).

As for the "red bull should develop their own engines". This is the worst kind of argument you can give. Going down that route guarantees you to the back of the grid. It means only manufacturer teams are allowed to play in the sandbox, and look how that turned out. 4 years of mercedes walkovers, and looks like the 5th year on it's way. Huraah.

[Xwang]

That article reads like a spoiled child whining because he wants the rules changed to suite they way he wants to play.

I put it down to spending too much time with Marko and Horner. It seems the Aero people moan more about it being an Engine formula than the Engine people moaned about it being an Aero Formula.

I'm sure Enzo would have preferred these current regs compared to the previous 20years.

For me this is the issue. It ties in nicely with 2017 and Ferrari too.

Whilst teams and moaning and asking the FIA for clarifications their focus isn't where it should be.

Let us look at Ferrari as a good example. In 2017 they went crying to the FIA over the trick suspension and got it banned and got within a whisker of a title. They probably may have got it too if they hadn't taken their eye off the ball (They may have thought that torpedoing Mercedes was enough so they could relax a little). What happened in the last 12 months? Mercedes just once again out thought Ferrari and found a work around. If Ferrari had spent as much time trying to out think the opposition as they do looking at what the opposition are doing and how to get stuff banned they would be in a much better place.

A person or team that is always looking for a corner cut of an easy out will never address their own failings. Yes Mercedes may have 1000 people working on their car but that is their decision to make. Moaning and crying about it won't change that only beating them by doing it better anyway will.

Maybe you should consider that all teams can ask clarifications to the FIA. If the answer to the clarification ban a solution, then we should think that it was a bit too border line.
Teams agree to this system of enforcing rules by entering the championship.

[Marble]

I was in BCN last week and noted some race rim from Gasly, Hamilton, Vettel, Max, Hulk ...
I'm desperate to get the from Magnussen's. Anyone could help ?

[Juzh]

Yeah, I don't remember him moaning about engines when he had the Renault V10 in the back of his Williams cars. That was the best engine back then. I don't remember him moaning about the Renault V8 when it was allowing him to use various diffuser-blowing tricks. Only once someone else is doing a better engine does he (and Horner, Marko etc.) moan about engines. It has the feeling of people who believe they have a right to win...

Renault's cold blowing was inferior to mercs hot blowing (to the point it wasn't even close, if we are to base our assumptions on the fact that 10% open throttle while hot blowing was worth renault's 50% while cold blowing - that's from silverstone 2011). After off throttle blowing was banned and exhaust positioning heavily restricted all the supposed renault advantages you're making up were gone anyway. What did stay was unreliability and low power.

As for the mercedes V6. Name one area in which newey is incorrect in that statement:

Mercedes is superior in all disciplines. Engine power, fuel consumption, drivability, MGU-H recuperation

I'll wait.
He should have added reliability on top of that.

If the engine is such a massive advantage then why aren't Williams & Force India up there fighting with Ferrari and Redbull ?

Teams with 1/3 or 1/4 the budget. Why do you think mercedes was happy to give their engine to manor, and made them impossible to pass for some midfielders even when they had 2s deficit over the lap, but wouldn't give their engine to red bull? Obviously cuz they knew they'd actually have to fight for victories then.
Same goes for ferrari btw. Both teams being utter cowards in that regard. Funny how RB didn't block mclaren from getting renault engines.

[Xwang]

Funny how RB didn't block mclaren from getting renault engines.

Could RB have blocked McLaren getting Renault engines?
In which way? Keeping Toro Rosso furniture?

[Restomaniac]

I put it down to spending too much time with Marko and Horner. It seems the Aero people moan more about it being an Engine formula than the Engine people moaned about it being an Aero Formula.

I'm sure Enzo would have preferred these current regs compared to the previous 20years.

For me this is the issue. It ties in nicely with 2017 and Ferrari too.

Whilst teams and moaning and asking the FIA for clarifications their focus isn't where it should be.

Let us look at Ferrari as a good example. In 2017 they went crying to the FIA over the trick suspension and got it banned and got within a whisker of a title. They probably may have got it too if they hadn't taken their eye off the ball (They may have thought that torpedoing Mercedes was enough so they could relax a little). What happened in the last 12 months? Mercedes just once again out thought Ferrari and found a work around. If Ferrari had spent as much time trying to out think the opposition as they do looking at what the opposition are doing and how to get stuff banned they would be in a much better place.

A person or team that is always looking for a corner cut of an easy out will never address their own failings. Yes Mercedes may have 1000 people working on their car but that is their decision to make. Moaning and crying about it won't change that only beating them by doing it better anyway will.

Maybe you should consider that all teams can ask clarifications to the FIA. If the answer to the clarification ban a solution, then we should think that it was a bit too border line.
Teams agree to this system of enforcing rules by entering the championship.

They can indeed. Is it not true though that in that case Ferrari seemed more interested in what Mercedes and RedBull were doing over coming up with something better?

That's the point. All Mercedes did was think outside the box and find another solution for 2018. Something Ferrari could have started doing in late 2016 but they were too busy looking at the Mercedes and RedBull cars instead.

[Xwang]

For me this is the issue. It ties in nicely with 2017 and Ferrari too.

Whilst teams and moaning and asking the FIA for clarifications their focus isn't where it should be.

Let us look at Ferrari as a good example. In 2017 they went crying to the FIA over the trick suspension and got it banned and got within a whisker of a title. They probably may have got it too if they hadn't taken their eye off the ball (They may have thought that torpedoing Mercedes was enough so they could relax a little). What happened in the last 12 months? Mercedes just once again out thought Ferrari and found a work around. If Ferrari had spent as much time trying to out think the opposition as they do looking at what the opposition are doing and how to get stuff banned they would be in a much better place.

A person or team that is always looking for a corner cut of an easy out will never address their own failings. Yes Mercedes may have 1000 people working on their car but that is their decision to make. Moaning and crying about it won't change that only beating them by doing it better anyway will.

Maybe you should consider that all teams can ask clarifications to the FIA. If the answer to the clarification ban a solution, then we should think that it was a bit too border line.
Teams agree to this system of enforcing rules by entering the championship.

They can indeed. Is it not true though that in that case Ferrari seemed more interested in what Mercedes and RedBull were doing over coming up with something better?

That's the point. All Mercedes did was think outside the box and find another solution for 2018. Something Ferrari could have started doing in late 2016 but they were too busy looking at the Mercedes and RedBull cars instead.

Well the same can be told with SF70 "scimitar" which has to be blocked after Mercedes asked a clarification (in this case as you say they didn't have to be busy looking at Ferrari because Mr. Allison already knew what it was for having working in Ferrari).

It seems as if you are saying that whatever new solution a team use, nobody else should comply even if a different (or better) interpretation of the rules defines that solution as illegal.

[Restomaniac]

Maybe you should consider that all teams can ask clarifications to the FIA. If the answer to the clarification ban a solution, then we should think that it was a bit too border line.
Teams agree to this system of enforcing rules by entering the championship.

They can indeed. Is it not true though that in that case Ferrari seemed more interested in what Mercedes and RedBull were doing over coming up with something better?

That's the point. All Mercedes did was think outside the box and find another solution for 2018. Something Ferrari could have started doing in late 2016 but they were too busy looking at the Mercedes and RedBull cars instead.

Well the same can be told with SF70 "scimitar" which has to be blocked after Mercedes asked a clarification (in this case as you say they didn't have to be busy looking at Ferrari because Mr. Allison already knew what it was for having working in Ferrari).

It seems as if you are saying that whatever new solution a team use, nobody else should comply even if a different (or better) interpretation of the rules defines that solution as illegal.

I'll give you some more examples if you want to try and explain.

Williams 2018 car looks a dog of a car. Maybe if they haven't been Looking around at everyone else and looked at themselves instead of crying to the FIA with chasing the Mercedes engine maps they could be like Force India who stangely enough finished 4th in 2017 and don't have a dog of a car in 2018 with exactly the same engine maps as Williams.
McLaren's car is a quick but so far unreliable heap. Maybe if instead of pointing to Honda in 2017 saying 'It's all them' and looked at their own situation they may not be breaking down as often as they do in 2018.

My point is that people and teams get fixated on the wrong things so when they bleat and moan they should instead maybe look internally for a solution instead of always looking externally. It's far to easy to shout 'It's nor fair' or run to the teacher instead of looking at oneself in the mirror.

[FMP]

Well consider a team being about a few hundred people. How many do you think are working with coming up with new ideas and how many do you think are working with trying to block other teams' inventions? It sure sounds easy to say that you have to get your head down and focus on your own end, but they already do that. Menawhile trying to screw another team over or seriously trying to get a clarification from the FIA so you know if you would have to invest research into that deparment yourself.

[JPBD1990]

They can indeed. Is it not true though that in that case Ferrari seemed more interested in what Mercedes and RedBull were doing over coming up with something better?

That's the point. All Mercedes did was think outside the box and find another solution for 2018. Something Ferrari could have started doing in late 2016 but they were too busy looking at the Mercedes and RedBull cars instead.

Well the same can be told with SF70 "scimitar" which has to be blocked after Mercedes asked a clarification (in this case as you say they didn't have to be busy looking at Ferrari because Mr. Allison already knew what it was for having working in Ferrari).

It seems as if you are saying that whatever new solution a team use, nobody else should comply even if a different (or better) interpretation of the rules defines that solution as illegal.

I'll give you some more examples if you want to try and explain.

Williams 2018 car looks a dog of a car. Maybe if they haven't been Looking around at everyone else and looked at themselves instead of crying to the FIA with chasing the Mercedes engine maps they could be like Force India who stangely enough finished 4th in 2017 and don't have a dog of a car in 2018 with exactly the same engine maps as Williams.
McLaren's car is a quick but so far unreliable heap. Maybe if instead of pointing to Honda in 2017 saying 'It's all them' and looked at their own situation they may not be breaking down as often as they do in 2018.

My point is that people and teams get fixated on the wrong things so when they bleat and moan they should instead maybe look internally for a solution instead of always looking externally. It's far to easy to shout 'It's nor fair' or run to the teacher instead of looking at oneself in the mirror.

I agree with your point, but I think it’s silly to think that solutions of questionable legality shouldn’t be looked at by the FIA. The FRIC system (for example) was specifically designed to side step regulations regarding using moveable aerodynamic parts. It was designed specifically to increase the cars aerodynamic performance, in full knowledge that it was illegal. I’m sure a team of 100 lawyers came up with a very compelling reason for why it should be considered legal, but ultimately it was not.

Now the alternative is, that teams copy FRIC and eventually everyone runs with it. Is that for the ultimate benefit of the sport? First of all, it would cost a fortune - so sure Ferrari and redbull could copy (eventually) but could the others? It’s essentially already a two tiered competition.

Teams simply demand that the rules are applied equally to everyone. Should Mercedes “out of the box” thinking be exempt from the rules, or is it fair to question it? Should I just spend $20 million trying to copy it immediately, or should I ask first? Tricky thing...

[Xwang]

It's far to easy to shout 'It's nor fair' or run to the teacher instead of looking at oneself in the mirror.

I agree that always crying "It's not fair" is wrong.
But that does not seem to be the case of last year suspension ban.
I try to explain better:
if a team cry "it's not fair" to journalists, but does not ask to FIA for a clarification of the rule (if any) that they think is not fair (like RB is doing with the engines), then I agree with you that they are losing time and focus and should look at themselves at the mirror instead.
Otherwise, if a team think a solution maybe not legal, asks for a clarification to the FIA and FIA responds that it is not, I think they have correctly done they home-works avoiding to invest time and resources in developing an illegal solution (and maybe avoiding others to continue to use an illegal solution too).

In an ideal World the rules would not have so much grey areas, but after all we and who writes the rules are only humans, aren't we?

[JonoNic]

Not all strats are available to customer teams and then they have less manpower than Mercedes for aero.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Restomaniac]

It's far to easy to shout 'It's nor fair' or run to the teacher instead of looking at oneself in the mirror.

I agree that always crying "It's not fair" is wrong.
But that does not seem to be the case of last year suspension ban.
I try to explain better:
if a team cry "it's not fair" to journalists, but does not ask to FIA for a clarification of the rule (if any) that they think is not fair (like RB is doing with the engines), then I agree with you that they are losing time and focus and should look at themselves at the mirror instead.
Otherwise, if a team think a solution maybe not legal, asks for a clarification to the FIA and FIA responds that it is not, I think they have correctly done they home-works avoiding to invest time and resources in developing an illegal solution (and maybe avoiding others to continue to use an illegal solution too).

In an ideal World the rules would not have so much grey areas, but after all we and who writes the rules are only humans, aren't we?

It was meant in a wider scope. But look at the situation last season Ferrari got the ban brought in with weeks to go to the season. Now why did the go to the FIA in the first place? Because Ferrari themselves couldn't get it to work. So because RedBull and Mercedes could out think them Ferrari ran to teacher.

Again that's looking outward instead of inward and in the mirror as to why they themselves couldn't get it to work. If Ferrari had got it to work nothing would have been said on the matter so their initial responce wasn't that it needed banning in the first place until their own shortcomings came into play.

Teams need to look at themselves more.
To this regard the situation Williams and McLaren probably find themselves in for 2018 is entirely of the own making by not being willing to sort themselves out. If Ferrari have gone backwards as some expect then you could apply that logic to them too bearing in mind that they seem to have been focused on Mercedes and what they are doing (wheelbase length) instead of perfecting their own ideals. To give RedBull credit they seem to have stuck to their guns on that point and it may see them as the team most pushing Mercedes.

[Laserguru]

Not all strats are available to customer teams and then they have less manpower than Mercedes for aero.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

As per recent clarification of the rules by the fia the power unit hardware and software have to be identical, so they should have the same. If this was already so last year is unclear, though it is plausible that customer teams needed the qualification modes to proceed to q2 or q3 already. As far as I am aware the strat modes are not so relevent for racing but merely for qualification.

Leaves the size of the team. Sure there is a huge difference here. But looking at pre season testing, we still can enjoy a packed midfield.

[zokipirlo]

It's far to easy to shout 'It's nor fair' or run to the teacher instead of looking at oneself in the mirror.

I agree that always crying "It's not fair" is wrong.
But that does not seem to be the case of last year suspension ban.
I try to explain better:
if a team cry "it's not fair" to journalists, but does not ask to FIA for a clarification of the rule (if any) that they think is not fair (like RB is doing with the engines), then I agree with you that they are losing time and focus and should look at themselves at the mirror instead.
Otherwise, if a team think a solution maybe not legal, asks for a clarification to the FIA and FIA responds that it is not, I think they have correctly done they home-works avoiding to invest time and resources in developing an illegal solution (and maybe avoiding others to continue to use an illegal solution too).

In an ideal World the rules would not have so much grey areas, but after all we and who writes the rules are only humans, aren't we?

It was meant in a wider scope. But look at the situation last season Ferrari got the ban brought in with weeks to go to the season. Now why did the go to the FIA in the first place? Because Ferrari themselves couldn't get it to work. So because RedBull and Mercedes could out think them Ferrari ran to teacher.

Again that's looking outward instead of inward and in the mirror as to why they themselves couldn't get it to work. If Ferrari had got it to work nothing would have been said on the matter so their initial responce wasn't that it needed banning in the first place until their own shortcomings came into play.

Teams need to look at themselves more.
To this regard the situation Williams and McLaren probably find themselves in for 2018 is entirely of the own making by not being willing to sort themselves out. If Ferrari have gone backwards as some expect then you could apply that logic to them too bearing in mind that they seem to have been focused on Mercedes and what they are doing (wheelbase length) instead of perfecting their own ideals. To give RedBull credit they seem to have stuck to their guns on that point and it may see them as the team most pushing Mercedes.

They (Ferrari) didn't moaning, they just asked FIA how can they implement it without being illegal. And response was that everything was illegal.
Why was Mercedes moaning about a hole in a floor and additional oil tanks? Because of that they could catch them up and fight for the title. Who knows what would be without that.
Biggest difference is that illegal suspension was banned before the season, but Ferrari solutions was in the middle of the season.
And I won't talk about Mercedes t-wings which were falling of like a snow from the sky and they almost get banned because of that.