Silly Season 2018/2019

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Pyrone89
5
User avatar
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:44 pm

Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Pyrone89 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:46 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:41 pm
I wonder if Newry is being a bit sharp by claiming that. I'd bet he's including the engine team in to "chassis" - the engine is part of the structure after all.

Mercedes have lots of people because they make their engines too.
He was talking explicitly about the aero department. I mentioned it as chassis side, but he himself said aero department and them being able to work on 3 models (years) at the same time.

GPR-A
88
User avatar
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by GPR-A » Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:01 am

Pyrone89 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:46 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:41 pm
I wonder if Newry is being a bit sharp by claiming that. I'd bet he's including the engine team in to "chassis" - the engine is part of the structure after all.

Mercedes have lots of people because they make their engines too.
He was talking explicitly about the aero department. I mentioned it as chassis side, but he himself said aero department and them being able to work on 3 models (years) at the same time.
He has got his numbers wrong. Brackley, where the racing team is situated, has around 1000 employees and the Brixworth, where the engine division is situated, has over 500 employees. Brixworth is NOT just F1 anymore. The same division is working for Formula E project too.

https://www.wheels24.co.za/FormulaOne/t ... s-20190311
According to journalist Dieter Rencken, who each year collates the financial figures for Racefans.net, the cost of keeping two cars on track in the championship is around 100 million euros.

Team budgets in 2018:

1. Ferrari (2nd in constructors championship) -- $410 million (361 million euros) total 950 employees + 480 in engine department

Receives the largest part of the sport's commercial revenues redistributed by F1 on account of the team's historic status in the sport. Backed also by cigarette manufacturers Philip Morris via their "Mission Winnow" project.

2. Mercedes (1st)

-- $400 million (352 million euros) total 950 employees + 500 in engine department

Daimler-Benz's F1 activities are split into two -- Mercedes GP for race operations and the powertrains, operating independently.

3. Red Bull (3rd)
-- $310 million (272 million euros)
860 employees

Link -> Mercedes F1 team to support Formula E project
Mercedes will develop its Formula E powertrain at its Brixworth engine base, which has been responsible for its dominant Formula 1 power unit in recent years, and will now “expand its scope of attention to include the unique challenges of Formula E”.

Just_a_fan
492
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Just_a_fan » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:35 am

Thank you GPR-A.

I think Newey, and Horner too as he spouts this stuff now and then, is just playing politics to try to make people think everyone has an unfair advantage against RedBull.

It's so transparent that I'm surprised any of these comments are reported these days. Oh, other than to stir up fake controversy to get clicks/reads of course!
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

GPR-A
88
User avatar
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by GPR-A » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:59 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:35 am
Thank you GPR-A.

I think Newey, and Horner too as he spouts this stuff now and then, is just playing politics to try to make people think everyone has an unfair advantage against RedBull.

It's so transparent that I'm surprised any of these comments are reported these days. Oh, other than to stir up fake controversy to get clicks/reads of course!
You are welcome!
The other thing that I hope people understand is, what comprises 1200. The entire garage staff (engineers, mechanics, tyre keepers, motor home staff, PR and Logistics management staff) that moves from race to race, the services staff at base (Finance, HR, Clerical, Facility Management, Manufacturing (body work, painting), Security) and what not.

The actual staff that works on car design could be a minuscule compared to the large number that people see from outside. Then, there comes those host of engineers that run the racing operations from base and the team that develops the car through the season.

The same applies to all teams, but to boldly claim a team can run 3 different car concepts is too far fetched.

Big Tea
67
User avatar
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Big Tea » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:54 am

The red bull figure does not include engine though and the other two do. Even if it cost them nothing, it should be dis-counted from the others if looking at like-for-like
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

ME4ME
162
User avatar
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:37 pm

Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by ME4ME » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:57 am

GPR -A wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:59 am
You are welcome!
The other thing that I hope people understand is, what comprises 1200. The entire garage staff (engineers, mechanics, tyre keepers, motor home staff, PR and Logistics management staff) that moves from race to race, the services staff at base (Finance, HR, Clerical, Facility Management, Manufacturing (body work, painting), Security) and what not.

The actual staff that works on car design could be a minuscule compared to the large number that people see from outside. Then, there comes those host of engineers that run the racing operations from base and the team that develops the car through the season.

The same applies to all teams, but to boldly claim a team can run 3 different car concepts is too far fetched.
The number one thing in this discussion should be to actually check what Newey said, so lets have it:
Mercedes Aero department twice as big
The planned clear-cutting of 2021 for the FIA ​​could be such a new start again. But in the opinion of Newey we can not hope that therefore the order in the field changes. First, because the 2021er cars are still developed without budget capping, so the small teams will be once again disadvantaged. Secondly, because Mercedes have such a big advantage this year that they can concentrate early on the 2021 car. "The Aero division of Mercedes is twice as big as ours. Their advantage is enough if only 50 percent of the people focus on the current car and 2020. The rest can already work fully for 2021, "complains Newey.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -mercedes/
So Newey clearly limits his complaint to one division: the aero devision.

Now unless I'm underinformed and missed something, the number of people working in each teams aero division isn't public knowledge and hasn't been specified or even speculated upon by reliable media.

It's a bold claim by Newey, but we cannot disregard it. We have no firm data to go on. It might well be true.

Since the start of the hybrid era, Mercedes strenght has gone from PU to aero (or lets use the term grip, so to include mechanical aspects as well). The W10 cannot be said to have a far superior PU anymore, although still a damn good one. Yet it has been by far the best car so far this season. Mercedes aero division is strong.

Just_a_fan
492
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Just_a_fan » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:03 pm

Perhaps Newey should ask his boss to employ more aero people.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Jolle
158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Jolle » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:06 pm

ME4ME wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:57 am
GPR -A wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:59 am
You are welcome!
The other thing that I hope people understand is, what comprises 1200. The entire garage staff (engineers, mechanics, tyre keepers, motor home staff, PR and Logistics management staff) that moves from race to race, the services staff at base (Finance, HR, Clerical, Facility Management, Manufacturing (body work, painting), Security) and what not.

The actual staff that works on car design could be a minuscule compared to the large number that people see from outside. Then, there comes those host of engineers that run the racing operations from base and the team that develops the car through the season.

The same applies to all teams, but to boldly claim a team can run 3 different car concepts is too far fetched.
The number one thing in this discussion should be to actually check what Newey said, so lets have it:
Mercedes Aero department twice as big
The planned clear-cutting of 2021 for the FIA ​​could be such a new start again. But in the opinion of Newey we can not hope that therefore the order in the field changes. First, because the 2021er cars are still developed without budget capping, so the small teams will be once again disadvantaged. Secondly, because Mercedes have such a big advantage this year that they can concentrate early on the 2021 car. "The Aero division of Mercedes is twice as big as ours. Their advantage is enough if only 50 percent of the people focus on the current car and 2020. The rest can already work fully for 2021, "complains Newey.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -mercedes/
So Newey clearly limits his complaint to one division: the aero devision.

Now unless I'm underinformed and missed something, the number of people working in each teams aero division isn't public knowledge and hasn't been specified or even speculated upon by reliable media.

It's a bold claim by Newey, but we cannot disregard it. We have no firm data to go on. It might well be true.

Since the start of the hybrid era, Mercedes strenght has gone from PU to aero (or lets use the term grip, so to include mechanical aspects as well). The W10 cannot be said to have a far superior PU anymore, although still a damn good one. Yet it has been by far the best car so far this season. Mercedes aero division is strong.
I don’t think the size of departments are very secret :P with all the staff movements and, apart from technical details, they do talk to each other so Newey could well make this claim.

The total number of people is indeed not a good comparison. Hours of each department would be. For instance, RedBull has a mighty marketing staff while Ferrari has none. Garage crew is limited by the way. Same of course how much you outsource or not, doesn’t do much for cost but slices well into the headcount.

holeindalip
5
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:58 am
Location: USA

Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by holeindalip » Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:40 pm

ME4ME wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:57 am
GPR -A wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:59 am
You are welcome!
The other thing that I hope people understand is, what comprises 1200. The entire garage staff (engineers, mechanics, tyre keepers, motor home staff, PR and Logistics management staff) that moves from race to race, the services staff at base (Finance, HR, Clerical, Facility Management, Manufacturing (body work, painting), Security) and what not.

The actual staff that works on car design could be a minuscule compared to the large number that people see from outside. Then, there comes those host of engineers that run the racing operations from base and the team that develops the car through the season.

The same applies to all teams, but to boldly claim a team can run 3 different car concepts is too far fetched.
The number one thing in this discussion should be to actually check what Newey said, so lets have it:
Mercedes Aero department twice as big
The planned clear-cutting of 2021 for the FIA ​​could be such a new start again. But in the opinion of Newey we can not hope that therefore the order in the field changes. First, because the 2021er cars are still developed without budget capping, so the small teams will be once again disadvantaged. Secondly, because Mercedes have such a big advantage this year that they can concentrate early on the 2021 car. "The Aero division of Mercedes is twice as big as ours. Their advantage is enough if only 50 percent of the people focus on the current car and 2020. The rest can already work fully for 2021, "complains Newey.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -mercedes/
So Newey clearly limits his complaint to one division: the aero devision.

Now unless I'm underinformed and missed something, the number of people working in each teams aero division isn't public knowledge and hasn't been specified or even speculated upon by reliable media.

It's a bold claim by Newey, but we cannot disregard it. We have no firm data to go on. It might well be true.

Since the start of the hybrid era, Mercedes strenght has gone from PU to aero (or lets use the term grip, so to include mechanical aspects as well). The W10 cannot be said to have a far superior PU anymore, although still a damn good one. Yet it has been by far the best car so far this season. Mercedes aero division is strong.

Mercedes aero Department has been good since 2013, remember them banging for poles with red bull all year, race pace was horrendous 90% of the time due to rear tire wear

raymondu999
143
User avatar
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:31 am

Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by raymondu999 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:25 am

Anyone heard of the rumored Ferrari technical restructuring yet? Apparently sources have been quoted saying Aldo Costa will return as TD, and Simone Resta will return as Chief Designer
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

Pyrone89
5
User avatar
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:44 pm

Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Pyrone89 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:29 am

Perhaps time to rename the topic to 2019/2020?

In my opinion Verstappen and his management are possible missing the window for a Mercedes seat by being too loyal to RB (who I think will still be 2nd max the coming years as Mercedes’ s advantages over all the other teams are structural and not dependant on some aero trick everyone copies the next year). If they replace Bottas with Ocon and Russell impresses enough to be seen as someone not much worse than Hamilton, the seats could be locked in for the coming 5 or more years, with Verstappen spending his twenties basically in an Alonso 2010-2013 situation. I think they should go to Mercedes as soon as they can to prevent this scenario, even if it means a very tough inter-team battle until Hamilton retires in a couple of years. He is likely to get more wins in a Mercedes anyway (just look at Bottas and his win record, when Bottas is not in the elite level drivers club) even if he would come second to Hamilton (I think they would be extremely close from the start, with Hamilton winning the first season together but Max getting the upperhand in the long run).

roon
444
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by roon » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:23 am

GPR -A wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:01 am
He has got his numbers wrong.
None were referenced in the quote, only proportions. To know, one has to establish the size of the aero departments at both teams. The total size of the Brackley and Brixworth divisions tell us nothing in regards to the size of aero departments, nor does listing out team budgets.

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:03 pm
Perhaps Newey should ask his boss to employ more aero people.
Taking your premise of hidden intent: maybe that's what he was doing.

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:35 am
I think Newey ... is just playing politics to try to make people think everyone has an unfair advantage against RedBull.
Mercedes is "everyone?" Time to step off the bandwagon.

Just_a_fan
492
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Just_a_fan » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:44 am

roon wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:23 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:35 am
I think Newey ... is just playing politics to try to make people think everyone has an unfair advantage against RedBull.
Mercedes is "everyone?" Time to step off the bandwagon.
It's a figure of speech. Time to stop looking for hidden meaning where none exists. :roll:
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

roon
444
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by roon » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:23 pm

Kvyat to RBR seeming more likely. But how soon? I think we can safely rule out Alonso going there, given that Honda tweet.

Big Tea
67
User avatar
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Silly Season 2018/2019

Post by Big Tea » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:54 pm

3 different people have mentioned today that it seems unlikely Bottas will keep the Mercedes seat next year. Where is the favorite for him to go?
The obvious requirement for him would be Haas, but he is not going to go there (is he?) RBR have 2 reasonable drivers from their own stable, and Gasly to go back to STR.
Are we left with Force.. er, Racing point and Renault, or is there another seat he would take if offered? This assumes no voluntary retirements from the top ranks and that Bottas has no restrictions from Merc.

I really can not fit him in, but he is too good to just dump
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions