Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Are Schumacher's WDC and Win records under threat of being eclipsed?

Will the 7 WDC record be broken?
6
3%
Will the 91 Victory record be broken?
44
26%
Neither record will be broken.
20
12%
Both records will be broken.
102
59%
 
Total votes: 172

NathanE
NathanE
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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ringo wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:48 am
So Hamilton can break the wins record this year and tie the title record?
If he has more wins, would that put him ahead of Shumacer for most successful champion of all time?
Or does he need to have a clear 8 championships?
Equal wins and championships with more podiums and poles already puts him ahead on an objective basis.

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Moore77
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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One single most important fact that remains is, no other champion of the past had such a dominating machinery for such a long time. It's all about right decisions. Credit to him for taking that risk of leaving McLaren and joining Mercedes, which was termed a doom decision back then.
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Mamba
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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NathanE wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:31 am
ringo wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:48 am
So Hamilton can break the wins record this year and tie the title record?
If he has more wins, would that put him ahead of Shumacer for most successful champion of all time?
Or does he need to have a clear 8 championships?
Equal wins and championships with more podiums and poles already puts him ahead on an objective basis.
Although to be fair, Schumacher often had to put pole ahead for a better race result (68 poles vs 91 wins) as they had to start qualifying with their race start fuel load and the seasons were quite a bit shorter then too. It's easier to rack up more podiums if you have a great car and 20/21 races per season than the same car but only 16/17 races per season.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Yeah both of them have things in their favour that the other didnt. Lewis has longer seasons, Michael had a team mate that let him win even when they were running 1-2 and no championship threat. A longer season helps pick up wins, but doesn't make a championship easier. Lewis is well agead of Michael on wins percentage, almost 5% in fact.
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Moore77
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:28 am
Yeah both of them have things in their favour that the other didnt. Lewis has longer seasons, Michael had a team mate that let him win even when they were running 1-2 and no championship threat. A longer season helps pick up wins, but doesn't make a championship easier. Lewis is well agead of Michael on wins percentage, almost 5% in fact.
Germany and specifically Russia 2018 comes to mind. Atleast, Schumacher let Barrichello win though in 2002 US GP, which neutralized what was gained. No other champion has had such a subservient team mate like Bottas for 4 (and would be 5) years straight, with dominating car. Consider 2015, a year when Rosberg wasn't upto the mark. All Hamilton has had to do, is to cross the finish line. So, a longer season is advantageous when car is dominant and a subservient team mate, definitely makes winning easier. I am not saying he isn't a great driver. But facts are facts.
Last edited by Moore77 on Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Wass85
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:28 am
Yeah both of them have things in their favour that the other didnt. Lewis has longer seasons, Michael had a team mate that let him win even when they were running 1-2 and no championship threat. A longer season helps pick up wins, but doesn't make a championship easier. Lewis is well agead of Michael on wins percentage, almost 5% in fact.
You could put that 5% down to having a dominant car for longer.

Hamilton is well on course to put most of Schumacher's records in the shade. What are we thinking, 10 titles?

Partymood
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:28 am
Yeah both of them have things in their favour that the other didnt. Lewis has longer seasons, Michael had a team mate that let him win even when they were running 1-2 and no championship threat. A longer season helps pick up wins, but doesn't make a championship easier. Lewis is well agead of Michael on wins percentage, almost 5% in fact.
:lol:

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ringo
232
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Moore77 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:47 am
One single most important fact that remains is, no other champion of the past had such a dominating machinery for such a long time. It's all about right decisions. Credit to him for taking that risk of leaving McLaren and joining Mercedes, which was termed a doom decision back then.
I tend to disagree. From what i remember Shumacher had a car with tyres designed for him, and a teammate designed for him, and a team built around him, and the FIA. He had negligible competition over a season in his ferrari championship years.
There were no other rivals breathing down his neck; no level playing field in terms of tyres, teammates, regulations.

So i would not say the Mercedes was more dominant machinery; if you consider the whole car and the environemnt. Mercedes have to accept whatever directives come from the FIA and also whatever tyres are made by Pirelli. This has allowed redbull to be a threat, as a well as Ferrari to be the better car over two years in the hybrid era.
The ferrari of the shumacher era had no equal and was barely threatened over the season.
When the tables turned on them was when the narrow angle v10 renaults came into being. The renault chassis was superior as well as their starts off the line. The michellin tyres aslo were perfect, and thus Alonso dominated in 2005 and 2006.
Yes mercedes are dominant now, but the margins are much thinner than the Shumacher Ferrari days.
For Sure!!

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ringo
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Mamba wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:08 am
NathanE wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:31 am
ringo wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:48 am
So Hamilton can break the wins record this year and tie the title record?
If he has more wins, would that put him ahead of Shumacer for most successful champion of all time?
Or does he need to have a clear 8 championships?
Equal wins and championships with more podiums and poles already puts him ahead on an objective basis.
Although to be fair, Schumacher often had to put pole ahead for a better race result (68 poles vs 91 wins) as they had to start qualifying with their race start fuel load and the seasons were quite a bit shorter then too. It's easier to rack up more podiums if you have a great car and 20/21 races per season than the same car but only 16/17 races per season.
The season length is not relevant because you have the race start statistic. For example if Hamilton has 91 wins in 250 starts, and Shumi had 91 in 280 starts, that's still more races for Michael to get the job done so races per season doesnt factor there.
For Sure!!

Wass85
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Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:11 pm

Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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ringo wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:15 pm
Moore77 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:47 am
One single most important fact that remains is, no other champion of the past had such a dominating machinery for such a long time. It's all about right decisions. Credit to him for taking that risk of leaving McLaren and joining Mercedes, which was termed a doom decision back then.
I tend to disagree. From what i remember Shumacher had a car with tyres designed for him, and a teammate designed for him, and a team built around him, and the FIA. He had negligible competition over a season in his ferrari championship years.
There were no other rivals breathing down his neck; no level playing field in terms of tyres, teammates, regulations.

So i would not say the Mercedes was more dominant machinery; if you consider the whole car and the environemnt. Mercedes have to accept whatever directives come from the FIA and also whatever tyres are made by Pirelli. This has allowed redbull to be a threat, as a well as Ferrari to be the better car over two years in the hybrid era.
The ferrari of the shumacher era had no equal and was barely threatened over the season.
When the tables turned on them was when the narrow angle v10 renaults came into being. The renault chassis was superior as well as their starts off the line. The michellin tyres aslo were perfect, and thus Alonso dominated in 2005 and 2006.
Yes mercedes are dominant now, but the margins are much thinner than the Shumacher Ferrari days.
I hear this all the time but it doesn't wash with me. I mean he may have had a team built around him and such but all that counts was his performance relative to his rivals and you have to say that the field was more competitive back then despite all his advantages.

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ringo
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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The field was not more competitive back then.
For Sure!!

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Moore77
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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ringo wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:15 pm
So i would not say the Mercedes was more dominant machinery; if you consider the whole car and the environemnt. Mercedes have to accept whatever directives come from the FIA and also whatever tyres are made by Pirelli. This has allowed redbull to be a threat, as a well as Ferrari to be the better car over two years in the hybrid era.
The ferrari of the shumacher era had no equal and was barely threatened over the season.
When the tables turned on them was when the narrow angle v10 renaults came into being. The renault chassis was superior as well as their starts off the line. The michellin tyres aslo were perfect, and thus Alonso dominated in 2005 and 2006.
Yes mercedes are dominant now, but the margins are much thinner than the Shumacher Ferrari days.
You beautifully summed up everything there! It's all about Mercedes! Isn't it? That's the thing! This team is so great and can overcome any obstacle thrown at them that, it doesn't even need a great driver! For this team, a driver, simply has to to take the car across the finish line and count the wins! That is what I said! They are dominant (best team there ever has been) and have a dominant machinery, for far longer than any other team ever had, which is benefiting one man, who had made a lucky decision!
Last edited by Moore77 on Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wass85
Wass85
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Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:11 pm

Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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ringo wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:26 pm
The field was not more competitive back then.
No?

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ringo
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Moore77 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:08 pm
ringo wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:15 pm
So i would not say the Mercedes was more dominant machinery; if you consider the whole car and the environemnt. Mercedes have to accept whatever directives come from the FIA and also whatever tyres are made by Pirelli. This has allowed redbull to be a threat, as a well as Ferrari to be the better car over two years in the hybrid era.
The ferrari of the shumacher era had no equal and was barely threatened over the season.
When the tables turned on them was when the narrow angle v10 renaults came into being. The renault chassis was superior as well as their starts off the line. The michellin tyres aslo were perfect, and thus Alonso dominated in 2005 and 2006.
Yes mercedes are dominant now, but the margins are much thinner than the Shumacher Ferrari days.
You beautifully summed up everything there! It's all about Mercedes! Isn't it? That's the thing! This team is so great and can overcome any obstacle thrown at them that, it doesn't even need a great driver! For this team, a driver, simply has to to take the car across the finish line and count the wins! That is what I said! They are dominant (best team there ever has been) and have a dominant machinery, for far longer than any other team ever had, which is benefiting one man, who had made a lucky decision!
The all the greats we lucky and had the best machinery then. Especially Senna and Fangio!
It's no coincidence that all Senna's championships were pretty much in mclaren's most dominant era. Fangio had a way of finding the best car to drive. That's just how it is; they all had the best car. Therefore we cannot behave as if all of a sudden Hamilton had this big advantage none of the great drivers ever had.
For Sure!!

tangodjango
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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ringo wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:32 pm
Moore77 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:08 pm
ringo wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:15 pm
So i would not say the Mercedes was more dominant machinery; if you consider the whole car and the environemnt. Mercedes have to accept whatever directives come from the FIA and also whatever tyres are made by Pirelli. This has allowed redbull to be a threat, as a well as Ferrari to be the better car over two years in the hybrid era.
The ferrari of the shumacher era had no equal and was barely threatened over the season.
When the tables turned on them was when the narrow angle v10 renaults came into being. The renault chassis was superior as well as their starts off the line. The michellin tyres aslo were perfect, and thus Alonso dominated in 2005 and 2006.
Yes mercedes are dominant now, but the margins are much thinner than the Shumacher Ferrari days.
You beautifully summed up everything there! It's all about Mercedes! Isn't it? That's the thing! This team is so great and can overcome any obstacle thrown at them that, it doesn't even need a great driver! For this team, a driver, simply has to to take the car across the finish line and count the wins! That is what I said! They are dominant (best team there ever has been) and have a dominant machinery, for far longer than any other team ever had, which is benefiting one man, who had made a lucky decision!
The all the greats we lucky and had the best machinery then. Especially Senna and Fangio!
It's no coincidence that all Senna's championships were pretty much in mclaren's most dominant era. Fangio had a way of finding the best car to drive. That's just how it is; they all had the best car. Therefore we cannot behave as if all of a sudden Hamilton had this big advantage none of the great drivers ever had.
You are wasting your time explaining this point, which I wholeheartedly agree with, repeatedly unfortunately . The rancor and bitterness towards Mercedes and Hamilton is only going to increase especially if 2021 is similar to this year and that means all the significant F1 historical records are going to be earned by him, and one of the prime reasons that will bring increasing levels of bile his way is that the records are being stripped from Ferrari.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello