Ban automakers

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Jolle
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Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
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Re: Ban automakers

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bill shoe wrote:
18 May 2019, 01:36
Phil wrote:
15 May 2019, 18:25
It's a little late for that now...
Yes, for sure too late, but I agree with the concept. I think the Big Lie in modern racing is that large corporate money is maybe dubious for the sporting aspect but a necessary evil for the funding. In reality if the big manufacturers were kicked out then the sport would go to a massively cheaper formula and manufacturer money would not be missed. At least by the fans. And for the first time in 20? years the cars would be allowed to start looking fundamentally different instead of using rules to force the same damn overall look plus a few tacked-on anal legality boxes where aerodynamicists are allowed to play with really inefficient aero toys.

The formula evolves to be as expensive as the field will support. So the current set of teams are effectively chosen via willingness/ability to pay rather than through ability & merit as demonstrated in a competitive environment.
Don’t forget that the current spending war was started by Philip Morris all the way back in 1996. Pretty soon al the normal corporate sponsors and other companies were replaced by car manufacturers. With the hight of those years in the early 2000’s, with BMW, Toyota, Mercedes Honda and Renault all having massive budgets while Philip Morris kept upping the budget to keep in front.

I wonder what would happen if PM would call it quits when their current contract runs out.

bill shoe
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008, 08:18
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: Ban automakers

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bill shoe wrote:
18 May 2019, 01:36
The formula evolves to be as expensive as the field will support. So the current set of teams are effectively chosen via willingness/ability to pay rather than through ability & merit as demonstrated in a competitive environment.
It's my understanding there is some type of racing competition going on in Indianapolis this May that requires gaining entry to the competition based on merit rather than mere willingness to pay $X to participate. Wonder if that has any relevance to this issue...

Yes I know this is a half stretch, but it's also half true.

Maritimer
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Joined: 06 Sep 2017, 21:45
Location: Canada

Re: Ban automakers

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Except you can just walk in and buy a qualified car for Indy, requires no skill or merit

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Zynerji
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Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: Ban automakers

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I'm hoping that someone invents a paradigm shifting automobile technology, and will only license it to manufacturers who join a Formula Open-source (or whatever, shared tech is the point), so we can watch the Platinum Age of automobiles begin.

Is that really to much to ask for?

roon
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Joined: 17 Dec 2016, 19:04

Re: Ban automakers

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Zynerji wrote:
20 May 2019, 02:11
I'm hoping that someone invents a paradigm shifting automobile technology, and will only license it to manufacturers who join a Formula Open-source (or whatever, shared tech is the point), and watch the Platinum Age of automobiles begin.

Is that really to much to ask for?
The paradigm shift is happening. It involves technology that doesn't relate to athletes driving competition automobiles around closed courses. As I elude to in the OP, the two paths are diverging. Not that they were ever perfectly aligned.

Next decades will be automakers copying Tesla. Motorsport is its own world and should embrace that. Break from the world of transportation. The world's roads becomes more like a vast railway/subway, and cars will be looked at more like small buses and trains. Will F1 still be there, trying to painfully integrate ride sharing, taxi-modes, and in-car large screen hi-fi in order to remain 'relevant'? Will Lewis Vettel Jr. win ForzafortniteF1 round 7 inside his Waymo Williams-McLaren Renault by Dre hypertaxi in Monaco this year? Tune in to find out!

Just make the break, open the formula, and watch money and real spectator curiosity flow in.
Last edited by roon on 20 May 2019, 02:48, edited 2 times in total.

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Zynerji
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Re: Ban automakers

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roon wrote:
20 May 2019, 02:20
Zynerji wrote:
20 May 2019, 02:11
I'm hoping that someone invents a paradigm shifting automobile technology, and will only license it to manufacturers who join a Formula Open-source (or whatever, shared tech is the point), and watch the Platinum Age of automobiles begin.

Is that really to much to ask for?
The paradigm shift is happening. It involves technology that doesn't relate to athletes driving competition automobiles around closed courses. As I elude to in the OP, the two paths are diverging.
I understand the motive technology is going in that direction, but as long as we are still stamping & welding cars out of steel and aluminum, the first person to figure out a way to 3D print one in under a minute will have every manufacturer on the planet begging to license the technology. I just hope the person that figures it out doesn't take the money with an exclusivity license oh, I hope they use it to drive the manufacturer's together to share their technology, and then every car buyer on the planet cannot help but benefit from having highly over engineered, cheap cars.

roon
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Re: Ban automakers

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It takes, what, 30 minutes to churn out a factory automobile today? So your printer need only undercut that.

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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Ban automakers

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roon wrote:
20 May 2019, 02:55
It takes, what, 30 minutes to churn out a factory automobile today? So your printer need only undercut that.
That is very, very much a simplification. It may that that time to assemble it, but when you factor in just the transport time of sub assemblies let alone their production time, (and sub-sub assemblies) I would thing that a full day would brake even on time and phenomenal cost savings.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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Zynerji
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Re: Ban automakers

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Big Tea wrote:
24 May 2019, 23:10
roon wrote:
20 May 2019, 02:55
It takes, what, 30 minutes to churn out a factory automobile today? So your printer need only undercut that.
That is very, very much a simplification. It may that that time to assemble it, but when you factor in just the transport time of sub assemblies let alone their production time, (and sub-sub assemblies) I would thing that a full day would brake even on time and phenomenal cost savings.
Agreed.

I watched a vid on MINI Cooper's factory. Its mostly automated, stamped, and welded, but takes 22 hours to go through the steps needed to start assembly on the main chassis. Changing that to 1 hour with a 3d printed chassis would be a huge savings. Hell, Tesla might even hit their 3000 units/month target with that tech... :mrgreen:

I've personally been working on such a printer since 2014. I call it a GVD printer, or Guided Vapor Deposition. Its taken a long time to simplify each part, and I am almost ready to show what it does. It can, literally, have zero moving parts, so speed can be extremely fast, and at 0.7nm resolution, it can actually print things like hinges that are pre-assembled.

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FrukostScones
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Joined: 25 May 2010, 17:41
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Re: Ban automakers

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roon wrote:
20 May 2019, 02:55
It takes, what, 30 minutes to churn out a factory automobile today? So your printer need only undercut that.
what?
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

roon
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Re: Ban automakers

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FrukostScones wrote:
25 May 2019, 00:06
what?
Big Tea wrote:
24 May 2019, 23:10
That is very, very much a simplification.
Should've said two seconds(?).

https://twitter.com/StevenArmstrong/sta ... 54337?s=20

You guys are right though. I should be factoring in the time it takes to mine ore out of a pit mine, smelt and melt and alloy all the constituent metals, the time it took all the assembly line workers to drive to work and make a coffee, maybe the years it took the cattle to fully grow for the interiors. Only then can we talk about comparing traditional factory performance to hypothetical hyper advanced printer technology.

bill shoe
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Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: Ban automakers

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In Which the Manufacturers Hand Liberty Media Its Ass

The FIA is also arguably getting handed their ass, but they don't care what the rules are or where they come from. Liberty Media is not debatable, they are the recipient of the biggest full-frontal public smackdown ever seen in the world of sports business.

Liberty Media wanted in 2021-
1. Engines to become slightly more relevant and cheap (largely same thing). They proposed that everything stay the same except that the MGU-H would be eliminated. This was refused by the manufacturers. Liberty replied "Yes, sirs". Everything will stay exactly the same.
2. Gearbox internals to become standard from a single spec-supplier. Manufacturers informed Liberty this was not acceptable. Liberty replied "Yes, sirs" and told the FIA to issue the usual press release "...determined similar cost savings could be achieved by other means..."
3. Other parts to become standard. Manufacturers informed Liberty this would not happen, and Liberty gave the usual "Yes, …" and "the FIA is also reconsidering whether to introduce single suppliers of wheel rims, brake systems and brake friction materials in 2021"
4. Budget cap to come into effect. Liberty has not yet publically given up on this. Good luck.

If you are skeptical whether Liberty is being handed their own ass, then ask yourself this question: If Liberty had known in 2016 that they would not be allowed to make any structural/technical/financial changes to F1, then would Liberty have been willing to buy F1 for the price they paid?

https://www.racefans.net/2019/05/24/fia ... rbox-2021/

The link is a basic story, but you'll be getting this same info from many other sources. The future of F1 is in danger due to the inability of Liberty to manage their own stakeholders on a basic level. This is why the manufacturers should be kicked out of F1. They "bring money into the sport", but they do not provide any profit for the owners (Liberty Media) and they do not care about the best long-term interests of F1 as a sporting endevour for fans. The manufacturers only care about maintaining F1 as a marketing department for their corporate brands and egos. And now they run the whole show.

Timely and good thread by Roon.

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JordanMugen
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Joined: 17 Oct 2018, 13:36

Re: Ban automakers

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Manoah2u wrote:
19 May 2019, 10:39
Sooooooo you want a sport with race CARS but you don't want marques who MAKE cars to race...........right.
Racing car marques like Dallara, Taatus, March, Ligier-Onroak, Lola, Reynard, Swift etc are fine and accepted.

It's only Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault etc who are excluded.

I presume, similarly, that AER, Mechachrome, Judd, Gibson etc would be fine and accepted as power unit suppliers, only Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault and Honda would be excluded from supplying power units.

izzy
41
Joined: 26 May 2019, 22:28

Re: Ban automakers

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There are lots of sensible racing series, that are cheap, control costs, reasonably level playing field and all those good things. what's more when a driver really stands out in one or those series people immediately start talking about him graduating up to FORMULA 1 :)

F1 that is extreme, where a team sends its paddock building on 31 trucks, brake discs have 1500 tiny holes, cars have different little flow conditioning fins every race and is so freaking difficult it takes a major motor corporation 6 years to get into it and it's a bit too difficult for Porsche

This is why i'm insane for f1. There is plenty of ordinary, elsewhere

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Zynerji
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Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: Ban automakers

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Man, I would love to consult for Liberty on some things.

Does anyone have their address?