The curious case of Sebastian Vettel

[digitalrurouni]

All this talk of the ebb and flow of other drivers' talents just drives even more to him that Lewis Hamilton is quite amazing in that every year he somehow finds a way to step up his game. And this is a totally noob question but ok I understand that Vettel needs a stable rear of the car to get the most out of it. Can a driver not change styles? Especially someone with as much talent and class as Vettel has?

[raymondu999]

All this talk of the ebb and flow of other drivers' talents just drives even more to him that Lewis Hamilton is quite amazing in that every year he somehow finds a way to step up his game. And this is a totally noob question but ok I understand that Vettel needs a stable rear of the car to get the most out of it. Can a driver not change styles? Especially someone with as much talent and class as Vettel has?

It’s not easy to change something when it intrinsically becomes instinctive. It’s like trying to change the way you cross your arms; in a sense. But it’s even harder because you’re changing a range of responses from a range of sensory inputs and stimuli, as opposed to just changing a habit

[Writinglife]

My views on Vettel are thus

he is a great driver, particularly in a car that suits his particular style of driving. In the Red Bull, he was nigh-on untouchable for a long time. When the car isn't quite to his tastes, he's still able to perform well above most other drivers. The major weakness in Vettel is his ability to cope with sustained pressure. If he can get away clear at the front and build a good lead, he can usually maintain it, however, if another driver is able to keep pace with him, apply pressure on him over a long period, he often cracks and makes mistakes. He's done it with a number of drivers, but most often with Hamilton. His other major weakness is how he behaves when things turn against him. Case in point was the penalty in Canada. All drivers complain over the radio to their team mates, Hamilton complained about the move which, from his point, was dangerous. Vettel spent a number of laps almost whining about how unfair it was. In that case, a better response would be to put his foot to the floor, drive out of his skin and pull that gap out. 5 seconds was NOT an unrealistic gap to make for a world champion. Instead, the pressure of the situation got to him and he was unable to break free.

A number of times he's also been guilty of a "red mist" or "road rage" moment behind the wheel. If he feels wronged, he will lash out, sometimes with dangerous results. He's often escaped serious penalty for moments which would see lesser drivers picking up bans.

Outside of the car, he seems a nice guy, private about his family, but willing to put in the time to entertain the fans. He's certainly not the worst driver to ever grace F1, but he has some very visible weaknesses that are exploited repeatedly, which leads me to believe he will not be able to stand Leclerc's challenge for long. He will leave Ferrari before long in the search for another team where he can be unchallenged by his teammate, or leave F1 entirely.

[digitalrurouni]

All this talk of the ebb and flow of other drivers' talents just drives even more to him that Lewis Hamilton is quite amazing in that every year he somehow finds a way to step up his game. And this is a totally noob question but ok I understand that Vettel needs a stable rear of the car to get the most out of it. Can a driver not change styles? Especially someone with as much talent and class as Vettel has?

It’s not easy to change something when it intrinsically becomes instinctive. It’s like trying to change the way you cross your arms; in a sense. But it’s even harder because you’re changing a range of responses from a range of sensory inputs and stimuli, as opposed to just changing a habit

I guess maybe you are right but if you are being paid 45 million a year or whatever something ridiculous the key ability to have is to adapt. Case in point - Stoner and Marquez from MotoGP can damn near ride anything and win on it. Sebastian Loeb in WRC is what a 9 or 10 time consecutive WC right? You are telling me he didn't have to adapt his driving style? Lewis Hamilton is another. You are telling me he didn't have to adapt his driving style across cars? He has gotten on pole, has won as well every single year he has competed. He's not adapting his driving style? I don't believe it.

[Manoah2u]

All this talk of the ebb and flow of other drivers' talents just drives even more to him that Lewis Hamilton is quite amazing in that every year he somehow finds a way to step up his game. And this is a totally noob question but ok I understand that Vettel needs a stable rear of the car to get the most out of it. Can a driver not change styles? Especially someone with as much talent and class as Vettel has?

It’s not easy to change something when it intrinsically becomes instinctive. It’s like trying to change the way you cross your arms; in a sense. But it’s even harder because you’re changing a range of responses from a range of sensory inputs and stimuli, as opposed to just changing a habit

I guess maybe you are right but if you are being paid 45 million a year or whatever something ridiculous the key ability to have is to adapt. Case in point - Stoner and Marquez from MotoGP can damn near ride anything and win on it. Sebastian Loeb in WRC is what a 9 or 10 time consecutive WC right? You are telling me he didn't have to adapt his driving style? Lewis Hamilton is another. You are telling me he didn't have to adapt his driving style across cars? He has gotten on pole, has won as well every single year he has competed. He's not adapting his driving style? I don't believe it.

this.

Take a look at Schumacher and Senna too.
Schumacher had a wild bunch of different cars, and he excelled in all of them.
Offcourse that doesn't mean he became WDC in any car he drove in, but the Benetton, the Ferrari's, and the Merc (even though that was a lesser stint due to his permanent motoGP injuries), were very different vehicles.
That goes for Senna too.
The toleman, the lotus, the Mclaren, the Williams.

Alonso and Hamilton;

Alonso in a Benetton/Renault, then in Mclaren, then in Ferrari.
Hamilton in a Mclaren, now a Mercedes.

Again, Vettel is not bad at all. He's really fast but he makes really silly mistakes, which are, clearly,
the simple result of cracking under pressure. It seems Vettel is really hotheaded or extremely basic human instinct impulsive when met with opposition. This takes away a lot from his potential.
I remain that i thoroughly believe this is the result of having achieved all he really wanted, and having little hunger.
WDC with Ferrari is a goal, but it doesn't hold the same as it does for LeClerc or Verstappen, especially with 4 titles under his belt. This lack of motivation causes that he doesn't go all out as in for example Hamilton DID atleast a few years ago. He even broke up with super-extremely-irresistable-amazing-supermodel Nicole Scherzinger.

Hamilton's mindset is different to that of Vettel. I think LeClerc and Verstappen and Ricciardo are examples of drivers that have that same mindset/focus as Lewis.

[Phil]

The measurement of drivers isnt binary. “Best” or “better” is difficult to quantify, at the very least because this is a team sport and it takes way more than a brilliant driver to be successful.

I’d also argue that Hamilton is more adaptable than Vettel in being able to perform on a high level even when the car is not, but to rate Vettel lower on that basis might be unfair; given the right car, he might be the quickest of all. Thinking back to the RedBull days, a car to be fair that was very planted and fittted his driving perfectly, it was amazing how perfect he aced his laps. Singapore, i think 2013, comes to mind. I often wondered if anyone else on that day in that car would have beaten him.

I also refuse to think that the best driver will always be ‘best’. Some cars suit certain drivers better, sometimes it’s the conditions, or the day form, the team etc.

We expect drivers to maximize the chances they get though, and in this particular area, i feel Vettel has underperformed these last 3 seasons and could/should have done better.

Having that said, i feel his performance this year stems from him trying just a little too hard in a car he doesnt feel comfortable with. Despite rating Leclerc very highly, Vettel isnt that far behind, which i think shows he still has potential to do better given the right car.

I also think Vettel may have had it a little to easy these last few years with uncompetitive team mates. I think Hamilton, by having stronger team mates, has been able to profit, learn and grow as a driver. If you are always the better driver in the team, you might mistake yourself to be the benchmark even in areas where there is potential to do better.

[digitalrurouni]

It’s not easy to change something when it intrinsically becomes instinctive. It’s like trying to change the way you cross your arms; in a sense. But it’s even harder because you’re changing a range of responses from a range of sensory inputs and stimuli, as opposed to just changing a habit

I guess maybe you are right but if you are being paid 45 million a year or whatever something ridiculous the key ability to have is to adapt. Case in point - Stoner and Marquez from MotoGP can damn near ride anything and win on it. Sebastian Loeb in WRC is what a 9 or 10 time consecutive WC right? You are telling me he didn't have to adapt his driving style? Lewis Hamilton is another. You are telling me he didn't have to adapt his driving style across cars? He has gotten on pole, has won as well every single year he has competed. He's not adapting his driving style? I don't believe it.

this.

Take a look at Schumacher and Senna too.
Schumacher had a wild bunch of different cars, and he excelled in all of them.
Offcourse that doesn't mean he became WDC in any car he drove in, but the Benetton, the Ferrari's, and the Merc (even though that was a lesser stint due to his permanent motoGP injuries), were very different vehicles.
That goes for Senna too.
The toleman, the lotus, the Mclaren, the Williams.

Alonso and Hamilton;

Alonso in a Benetton/Renault, then in Mclaren, then in Ferrari.
Hamilton in a Mclaren, now a Mercedes.

Again, Vettel is not bad at all. He's really fast but he makes really silly mistakes, which are, clearly,
the simple result of cracking under pressure. It seems Vettel is really hotheaded or extremely basic human instinct impulsive when met with opposition. This takes away a lot from his potential.
I remain that i thoroughly believe this is the result of having achieved all he really wanted, and having little hunger.
WDC with Ferrari is a goal, but it doesn't hold the same as it does for LeClerc or Verstappen, especially with 4 titles under his belt. This lack of motivation causes that he doesn't go all out as in for example Hamilton DID atleast a few years ago. He even broke up with super-extremely-irresistable-amazing-supermodel Nicole Scherzinger.

Hamilton's mindset is different to that of Vettel. I think LeClerc and Verstappen and Ricciardo are examples of drivers that have that same mindset/focus as Lewis.

Yeah I totally am in agreement with your assessment. You would think though this nugget of wisdom would be provided to Vettel by members of his entourage or his team even.

[Jolle]

I guess maybe you are right but if you are being paid 45 million a year or whatever something ridiculous the key ability to have is to adapt. Case in point - Stoner and Marquez from MotoGP can damn near ride anything and win on it. Sebastian Loeb in WRC is what a 9 or 10 time consecutive WC right? You are telling me he didn't have to adapt his driving style? Lewis Hamilton is another. You are telling me he didn't have to adapt his driving style across cars? He has gotten on pole, has won as well every single year he has competed. He's not adapting his driving style? I don't believe it.

this.

Take a look at Schumacher and Senna too.
Schumacher had a wild bunch of different cars, and he excelled in all of them.
Offcourse that doesn't mean he became WDC in any car he drove in, but the Benetton, the Ferrari's, and the Merc (even though that was a lesser stint due to his permanent motoGP injuries), were very different vehicles.
That goes for Senna too.
The toleman, the lotus, the Mclaren, the Williams.

Alonso and Hamilton;

Alonso in a Benetton/Renault, then in Mclaren, then in Ferrari.
Hamilton in a Mclaren, now a Mercedes.

Again, Vettel is not bad at all. He's really fast but he makes really silly mistakes, which are, clearly,
the simple result of cracking under pressure. It seems Vettel is really hotheaded or extremely basic human instinct impulsive when met with opposition. This takes away a lot from his potential.
I remain that i thoroughly believe this is the result of having achieved all he really wanted, and having little hunger.
WDC with Ferrari is a goal, but it doesn't hold the same as it does for LeClerc or Verstappen, especially with 4 titles under his belt. This lack of motivation causes that he doesn't go all out as in for example Hamilton DID atleast a few years ago. He even broke up with super-extremely-irresistable-amazing-supermodel Nicole Scherzinger.

Hamilton's mindset is different to that of Vettel. I think LeClerc and Verstappen and Ricciardo are examples of drivers that have that same mindset/focus as Lewis.

Yeah I totally am in agreement with your assessment. You would think though this nugget of wisdom would be provided to Vettel by members of his entourage or his team even.

It might be that Vettel's biggest flaw is his almost aversion against some self reflection. It might just towards the press, but it seems that he doesn't develop after mistakes or bad races. Just like the incident in Monza, where he did own up to the spin but then gave the lack of vision the blame for coming back on track in the path of Stroll. No Vettel, you were just stupid to floor it right away, two seconds on the radio and they would have guided you back on track safely. It's always the other driver, the stewards, the car... It's not so much that Vettel got slower, everybody around him got faster. Even on a perfect weekend, Hamilton, Verstappen and Leclerc are reflecting on every corner, all the data, all their actions with honest feedback. Don't think Vettel is doing that.

[selvam_e2002]

don't forget that in 2010 to 2013 every one praised him and compared to Shumi, Sena etc... after 5 years everyone complaining he is not good driver? how come?

As per my understanding, these drivers(max, Lecrec etc) are more dependent on race engineer and technology instead of having there own talent to driver a car.

The drivers ke Sena, Schumi, Alonso and Hamilton can adjust to changing technologies but these new young drivers cannot.

I am still thinking even Max, Lec, Vettel are in same position with same talent. You cannot compare with legends because their time period of racing is different and it is more raw talent.

[Big Tea]

But is it the car, or the regs? Vettel was superb in the defuser dominated days, since no t so much.
It seems that he was the perfect fit as driver and the RBR was the perfect fit as the car.
I remember other drivers of the era saying that it went against everything they knew and felt that when the car felt lost you push the peddle harder, not lift off. It was a complacently different requirement to ever before and ever since.

It may just have been a coincidence of come the hour come the man.
I am not saying he is not a good driver otherwise, just this was his party trick

[digitalrurouni]

But is it the car, or the regs? Vettel was superb in the defuser dominated days, since no t so much.
It seems that he was the perfect fit as driver and the RBR was the perfect fit as the car.
I remember other drivers of the era saying that it went against everything they knew and felt that when the car felt lost you push the peddle harder, not lift off. It was a complacently different requirement to ever before and ever since.

It may just have been a coincidence of come the hour come the man.
I am not saying he is not a good driver otherwise, just this was his party trick

To my mind he's a bit like Jorge Lorenzo or Johann Zarco in MotoGP. They are devastatingly fast when both wheels are in line and take smooth lines. And they are nowhere when a bike demands to be ridden different a la Honda/Ducati and KTM.

[Zarathustra]

As per my understanding, these drivers(max, Lecrec etc) are more dependent on race engineer and technology instead of having there own talent to driver a car.

This has to be right up there with all other ‘BS’- IMHO.

For example;
Hamilton has had by far the best car- the past several years, so that’s technology right there.

Furthermore Hamilton also asks a lot during races- to his engineer.

Of course all of the above is normal, no problem at all.

But then we get people saying Leclerc and Verstappen have no ‘talent’ just helped by technology and their engineer..

I mean.. come on!

Last but not least- although I respect and admire Hamilton, you can’t compare him with Schumacher.

What Schumacher did with Ferrari still is unrivaled- as a mather of fact, Hamilton is ‘driving’ Schumacher’s car at Mercedes- as Hamilton ‘took over’ what Schumacher ‘started’.

Hamilton has never have to built a team up from scratch ‘himself’.

Hamilton still needs to drive the car though- so nothing negative about him, just to be sure you guys understand.

[Jolle]

As per my understanding, these drivers(max, Lecrec etc) are more dependent on race engineer and technology instead of having there own talent to driver a car.

This has to be right up there with all other ‘BS’- IMHO.

For example;
Hamilton has had by far the best car- the past several years, so that’s technology right there.

Furthermore Hamilton also asks a lot during races- to his engineer.

Of course all of the above is normal, no problem at all.

But then we get people saying Leclerc and Verstappen have no ‘talent’ just helped by technology and their engineer..

I mean.. come on!

Last but not least- although I respect and admire Hamilton, you can’t compare him with Schumacher.

What Schumacher did with Ferrari still is unrivaled- as a mather of fact, Hamilton is ‘driving’ Schumacher’s car at Mercedes- as Hamilton ‘took over’ what Schumacher ‘started’.

Hamilton has never have to built a team up from scratch ‘himself’.

Hamilton still needs to drive the car though- so nothing negative about him, just to be sure you guys understand.

Thats a bit extreme as well. You can't really compare the Schumacher years with now. During those days drivers were in the car almost seven days a week, Ferrari at Maranello and McLaren/Mercedes had a whole second team that traveled Europe making miles everywhere. The past decade drivers only really sit in the car during race weekends and the car is set up by the sim drivers, where Ferrari has a whole bunch of. Next to his neck injury the lack of time to fine-tune his car, could be one of the reasons why Schumachers return wasn't what everybody expected.

The current drivers are excellent to get the most out of the car within a few laps on track, that is quite impressive.

[Manoah2u]

But is it the car, or the regs? Vettel was superb in the defuser dominated days, since no t so much.
It seems that he was the perfect fit as driver and the RBR was the perfect fit as the car.
I remember other drivers of the era saying that it went against everything they knew and felt that when the car felt lost you push the peddle harder, not lift off. It was a complacently different requirement to ever before and ever since.

It may just have been a coincidence of come the hour come the man.
I am not saying he is not a good driver otherwise, just this was his party trick

the thing is, driving f1 cars has effecively become EASIER since.
i won't believe for a single moment that Vettel has trouble driving an easier car.
Even if a planted back is his preferance, the cars are simpler, there's no doubt about it.
just think about f-ducts and all for a moment.
innatural driving with blown double diffusers, f-ducts whilst operating a steering wheel,
flexi-wings, new KERS and ERS systems, and Vettel NOW has problems?

That to me again indicates it's not that he can't adapt or that current cars dont fit him. no way.
I mean let's be honest, he's been fighting for the WDC with Ferrari recently. It's not like he can't
drive or adapt. And one might argue that if the car hadn't let him down a few seasons ago,
then we might have actually seen him be WDC with a Ferrari.
Would have painted a vastly different picture.

BUT, the same remains. Even in his RBR days he cracked under pressure, one might say, 'easily'.
Look how annoyed he quickly became with Webber, and the exact same spins occur back then as
they do today.

The thing is, it happens 'much' more today for a few reasons: again, motivation. 4 titles will
motivate you less to go 'all out' in every little detail imho. Add to that that he has a family with kids
now. So do other drivers, but his situation is different.

But the biggest thing to concern imho is that he's no longer running at the front with a dominating car.
Even back in the RBR days his races went more sloppy when he didn't start from pole or stayed in front.
that doesn't mean he can't overtake or drive, i remember an amazingly impressive drive at Brazil where
he spun (there you go) at the start and had to cut through the field to be able to win the WDC.
he did just that, with no error, magnificiently. so he CAN do it.
Which is again why i think motivation is his biggest demon.
He was hugely motivated to get high up enough in the field to win the WDC, which made him go,
let's say the extra mile to reach his goal.
It SEEMS - to me - that this 'extra mile' is not put into his general performance, which results in
judgement errors and silly mistakes.

Which again, to me, is a shame, as when he is going the extra mile he is absolutely ferocious,
nearly unstoppable and scorchingly fast, controlled, impressive and bold.

let's not put under the rug that he has 52(!) wins. 117 podiums. 56 pole positions.
he is 3rd in the list of all-time F1 history total wins.
shares most wins in a single season with the legendary Schumacher.
holds title of most consecutive wins ever, even beating Schumacher (with Ascari 2nd).
he was 2nd in the WDC in 2018 and 2017. That means beating Bottas who arguably has a better car.
3rd in 2015, in his maiden Ferrari year, against an absolutely dominant Mercedes.
4th in 2016 due to 3 retirements and 1 no start.
People say he was lucky in 2010 when Alonso couldn't pass Petrov and as such missing out on the title,
but he had 3 DNF's that season to Alonso's 1.

and we can go on.

Funny enough, i think neither Hamilton, Alonso or Verstappen are able to keep their stand against Vettel
when Seb is full-on killer mode on his absolute 100%.
I neither like the guy nor dislike the guy, but he has an outstanding talent, which, unfortunately, is not tapped into the way it should it seems. I'd personally partially lay blame on his engineer and direct environment for not going 'there'. In the end, whatever reason, that is his own choice.

Unfortunately for Vettel though, i think his ship has sailed. With LeClerc now aboard, Vettel's role will become less paramount to Ferrari, which only hardens the possibility for Vettel to dominate, win, or grab the WDC.

That said though, if we look at the past 2 races, this season is far from over. For Vettel it is paramount he finds himself back and beats LeClerc. It COULD (easily) have been Vettel winning Spa or Monza.
Singapore will be interesting.
But the fact is Vettel is surpassed by Leclerc in the standings and is more than a 100(!) points behind Hamilton.

One can only imagine how things would have been different if he had not plowed into Max, and if he had not ruined this crucial Monza GP.

Still, WDC for 2019 is over for Vettel. There's no way he can make up the points difference with any reason. He must make more than 17 points every race than Hamilton to pass him in the WDC standings. With 7 races to go, no way. That means he must win every GP and then Lewis can't finish higher than 6th every GP. And that means bottas can't finish higher than 5th every GP.

Which means 2019 for Vettel is now a lost cause, so there's more motivation to think about.
Gonna be an interesting 2020.

[Seanxprt]

I think Fernando summed it up very well.

https://youtu.be/jYOM0v6ajRE