Renault ECUs impounded

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bill shoe
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by bill shoe » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:17 am

littlebigcat wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:31 pm
If this system is illegal then so is mapping MGU-K recovery based on the bias etc
Do you mean the Renault MGU-K mapping would be illegal if it piggybacked on the clever/secret automatic method of brake-bias adjustment that has now been ruled a driver aid? Or do you mean that MGU-K mapping that piggybacked on a conventional (driver-actuated) control-knob would be illegal due to the overall nature of the new FIA ruling?

littlebigcat
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by littlebigcat » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:21 am

The latter. I believe that the MGU-K braking maps changes bias and how much is from the rear brakes in a lot of different ways, and I remember reading a tech article which indicated it was speed dependent as well.

nzjrs
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by nzjrs » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:54 am

Do the regulations prohibit (how exactly) "lap distance dependent ERS" automatic (map adjustment).

To me this came down to an argument about it how the brake bias piggybacked of other systems (its private IP, that's why the report is very lacking on justification) and how one can redfine or otherwise make a non lap distance dependent "track position dependent" auto brake bias system.

Fascinating!

littlebigcat
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by littlebigcat » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:48 pm

They don't. Thats why they had to claim its a driver aid and against the sporting rules, despite it being non interactive with the driver controls(throttle;traction control, blown diffuser,brake;ABS,brake vectoring).

Massive cop out.

nzjrs
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by nzjrs » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:03 pm

littlebigcat wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:48 pm
They don't. Thats why they had to claim its a driver aid and against the sporting rules, despite it being non interactive with the driver controls(throttle;traction control, blown diffuser,brake;ABS,brake vectoring).

Massive cop out.
Well it is a driver aid, but I would have been interested to hear the arguments, how precisely people talk about what automatic ERS adjustments are being made, and which were the words used to describe how they operate

Big Tea
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Big Tea » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:14 pm

littlebigcat wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:21 am
The latter. I believe that the MGU-K braking maps changes bias and how much is from the rear brakes in a lot of different ways, and I remember reading a tech article which indicated it was speed dependent as well.
Was this not mentioned with Alonso in the Honda Mac? He was flat where the ECU expected a lift and it got lost?
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

RZS10
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by RZS10 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:26 pm

IIRC Red Bull also claimed that Verstappen lost the car in Bahrain because the system gave too much power expecting him to be in a different part of the track

gridwalker
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by gridwalker » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:11 pm

"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."

Morteza
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Morteza » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:10 pm

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

UlleGulle
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by UlleGulle » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:05 am

I think there is still some room for an exploit here, in relation to the verdict.

What if the driver could store a sequence of brake bias settings during the outlap/formation lap and then call upon that sequence at the push of a button?

For example, on the out lap, the driver sets the bias to 51/49% for the first corner and 55/45% for the second etc. This is then stored, and the drivers starts qualifying lap, push the button ahead of the first breaking point, then again ahead of the second, and the brake bias changes accordingly to his preparations.

It's the driver who sets the brake bias, and he who commands the changes manually, just to that preset bias. Would that really constitute a driving aid?

Brake Horse Power
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Brake Horse Power » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:51 am

Interesting they had in already in pre season tssting and are disqualified for just one race. If they had a clear advantage, shouldn't they have been disqualified for the whole season.. Or not at all?

subcritical71
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by subcritical71 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:41 am

Brake Horse Power wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:51 am
Interesting they had in already in pre season tssting and are disqualified for just one race. If they had a clear advantage, shouldn't they have been disqualified for the whole season.. Or not at all?
I pick, Or not at all! These cars are full of drivers aids. Why are they picking and choosing which are allowed.

Maritimer
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Maritimer » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:20 pm

UlleGulle wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:05 am
I think there is still some room for an exploit here, in relation to the verdict.

What if the driver could store a sequence of brake bias settings during the outlap/formation lap and then call upon that sequence at the push of a button?

For example, on the out lap, the driver sets the bias to 51/49% for the first corner and 55/45% for the second etc. This is then stored, and the drivers starts qualifying lap, push the button ahead of the first breaking point, then again ahead of the second, and the brake bias changes accordingly to his preparations.

It's the driver who sets the brake bias, and he who commands the changes manually, just to that preset bias. Would that really constitute a driving aid?
Nothing can be preselected for the driver.

UlleGulle
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by UlleGulle » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:32 pm

Maritimer wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:20 pm
UlleGulle wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:05 am
I think there is still some room for an exploit here, in relation to the verdict.

What if the driver could store a sequence of brake bias settings during the outlap/formation lap and then call upon that sequence at the push of a button?

For example, on the out lap, the driver sets the bias to 51/49% for the first corner and 55/45% for the second etc. This is then stored, and the drivers starts qualifying lap, push the button ahead of the first breaking point, then again ahead of the second, and the brake bias changes accordingly to his preparations.

It's the driver who sets the brake bias, and he who commands the changes manually, just to that preset bias. Would that really constitute a driving aid?
Nothing can be preselected for the driver.
Yes, the verdict is pretty clear in that respect, and I do apologize for not expressing myself clearly. My question really boils down to this; can brake bias be preselected BY the driver and thereby not considered a driving aid?

Maritimer
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Re: Renault ECUs impounded

Post by Maritimer » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:01 pm

No, just like gears cant be preselected by the driver. No preselection of any kind regardless if it's the driver or ECU.