FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
hape
hape
5
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:17 pm

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

izzy wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:43 pm
my standard is a loophole is fair enough, that's part of the game, and in the tyre test Ross spotted that the rule said teams mustn't arrange a tyre test! So they got Pirelli to arrange it :lol:

of course it upset everybody so they had to stay out of the next one, but strictly speaking they didn't break a rule
So if THAT is your standard for a loophole and breaking rules then I’m confused why you are insinuating Ferrari’s Pu was illegal with using words like naughty, cheating etc..
You don’t know what they did, how they did.....but with your vision of what is a loophole it might very well be fully acceptable.

User avatar
izzy
70
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

hape wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:45 am
So if THAT is your standard for a loophole and breaking rules then I’m confused why you are insinuating Ferrari’s Pu was illegal with using words like naughty, cheating etc..
You don’t know what they did, how they did.....but with your vision of what is a loophole it might very well be fully acceptable.
Generally with a loophole we find out about it and there isn't a sanction

But i haven't said 'cheating', I've been careful not to as i am not here to annoy Ferrari fans just discuss the evidence

dans79
dans79
299
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

izzy wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:59 am
Generally with a loophole we find out about it and there isn't a sanction
Yep, in this scenario we usually get a technical directive or a change/update to the future rules.
168 99 97 7

Polite
Polite
20
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:36 am

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

izzy wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:38 pm
Polite wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:10 am
about the new oil regulation of 0,6lper100km in race.. dont decontextualise =D> :lol:

that interview in Italian sounded really different! Binotto also said that every manufacturer would have faced reliability problem because of the new regulation and every one will wait to run the pu in full mode for a while..

also: that inteview is old... spain tests week one. of course is a clickbait for crash.net infact in the article they dont say who was the journalist and when was made. but those are the word of Binotto in the first test..
Mattia was speaking English, no? remind me about this new oil limit in a race that he carelessly didn't mention, with a linky please. tho why it'd be different for the other oem's i don't know O:) :-$
no that was a translation from italian and was a sky f1 italy interview after the winter testing.. so is not possible for me to provide a proper link.

User avatar
strad
271
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:57 am

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

McLaren boss Zak Brown has challenged Ferrari to disclose the details of the secret deal it signed with the FIA regarding its 2019 power unit.
Ferrari and the FIA drew the ire of several of its rivals earlier this year following a confidential agreement sealed between the two parties that put to rest the governing body's investigation into the legality of the Scuderia's engine.
In the latter part of 2019, the FIA conducted an analysis of the unit's fuel flow system, but the complexity of the technology prevented the institution's engineers from understanding whether Ferrari's engine breached the regulations or not.
Hence the subsequent deal between the two parties, the details of which the FIA would only be willing to disclose with Ferrari's approval, said president Jean Todt.
Brown is therefore urging the House of Maranello to come clean, especially after team boss Mattia Binotto's recently invoked his team's "ethical duty" to protect its staff in the face of current attempts to cut back F1's 2021 budget cap limit.
"I'm all for having 'ethical duties'. And, along the lines of ethics, I think it would be great if Mattia would share with us, as the FIA has volunteered to share, what the details were behind the secret agreement that they came to over the alleged breach of regulations around their engines," Brown said in a video conference with selected media last week.Mercedes later exited the group of seven, allegedly as a result of a private conversation between Ferrari chairman John Elkann and Daimler boss Ola Källenius.
Red Bull Racing has now picked up the legal baton.
"The whole thing has left a bad taste," said RBR boss Christian Horner. "For us, it's about a lot of money.
"It makes a difference of $20 million whether we finish second or third in the world championship, and each of our employees has an additional bonus payment based on that. We cannot just leave it like that."
Zak Brown agrees.
https://f1i.com/news/372451-brown-defie ... -deal.html
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
703
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

I'm glad to see Brown pushing on this issue. It needs to be cleared up as it has left a very nasty, old-fashioned, "Ferrari International Assistance" taste in the mouth of many.

If it's the fuel, just come out and say "our fuel supplier did a brilliant job and found a load of extra horses for us by doing some clever stuff X, Y and Z". No need to divulge the exact details if it's subject to a patent application, although if it's something that is to be patented, the details will come out eventually anyway.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

User avatar
GPR-A
101
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

Ferrari should file a lawsuit against those who are accusing them of cheating. When FIA has clearly said, they couldn't establish what they believed could be a gray area, in other words a very clever exploitation of rules by Ferrari, why would anyone continue to think it's some kind of cheating? Why should Ferrari disclose the details of their engine systems to anyone other than FIA?

Mercedes did the right thing by moving out of this mess.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
703
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

Other teams are being clever and not accusing Ferrari of cheating, just in case. But, as has been mentioned several times, if Ferrari haven't been cheating, the FIA wouldn't have sanctioned them and, importantly, they wouldn't have accepted a sanction. That they have been sanctioned and have accepted it (albeit by the unusual ability to control what information is given out about the sanction) speaks volumes about their own view of their innocence or otherwise.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

User avatar
TAG
118
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:18 pm
Location: in a good place

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

GPR-A wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:14 am
Ferrari should file a lawsuit against those who are accusing them of cheating. When FIA has clearly said, they couldn't establish what they believed could be a gray area, in other words a very clever exploitation of rules by Ferrari, why would anyone continue to think it's some kind of cheating? Why should Ferrari disclose the details of their engine systems to anyone other than FIA?
Sounds easy enough, wonder why they don't file a lawsuit?
माकडाच्या हाती कोलीत

dans79
dans79
299
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

TAG wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:35 pm
Sounds easy enough, wonder why they don't file a lawsuit?
Most likely because they are afraid! In a real court, they aren't going to get any dispensation, and everything will come out.
168 99 97 7

User avatar
TAG
118
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:18 pm
Location: in a good place

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

dans79 wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:06 pm
TAG wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:35 pm
Sounds easy enough, wonder why they don't file a lawsuit?
Most likely because they are afraid! In a real court, they aren't going to get any dispensation, and everything will come out.
a good lawyer never asks a question he doesn't already know the answer to. ;) still, we have plenty of experts here.
माकडाच्या हाती कोलीत

User avatar
GPR-A
101
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

TAG wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:35 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:14 am
Ferrari should file a lawsuit against those who are accusing them of cheating. When FIA has clearly said, they couldn't establish what they believed could be a gray area, in other words a very clever exploitation of rules by Ferrari, why would anyone continue to think it's some kind of cheating? Why should Ferrari disclose the details of their engine systems to anyone other than FIA?
Sounds easy enough, wonder why they don't file a lawsuit?
Excellent question and I am with you if you can ask that to Ferrari president.

User avatar
GPR-A
101
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

TAG wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:25 pm
dans79 wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:06 pm
TAG wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:35 pm
Sounds easy enough, wonder why they don't file a lawsuit?
Most likely because they are afraid! In a real court, they aren't going to get any dispensation, and everything will come out.
a good lawyer never asks a question he doesn't already know the answer to. ;) still, we have plenty of experts here.
Oh I bet about the experts here, including the legal ones!

User avatar
GPR-A
101
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

dans79 wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:06 pm
TAG wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:35 pm
Sounds easy enough, wonder why they don't file a lawsuit?
Most likely because they are afraid! In a real court, they aren't going to get any dispensation, and everything will come out.
Why would anything would come out? In a reputation damage case, It's up to the accused (McLaren/RBR) to prove they KNOW the truth, based on which they are throwing the tantrums and spoiling the name of the accuser (Ferrari)! Who is going to give evidence to the accused? FIA? Who themselves doesn't know what exactly is the issue and how can they provide any details to the accused, because they then stand to breach the confidentiality agreement!

The accused have to provide all the details and prove the accuser is wrong, to bail themselves out! If the accused can't prove their claim, they stand to lose, even if the accuser doesn't provide details of their legality. This is reputation damage case between Ferrari and the others! Not going to be the case for the legality of Ferrari PU systems!!!

Jolle
Jolle
222
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

The teams don't really want the all of it to come out, one way or the other, they are going to pay the price.

first and foremost, F1 is a business. Mercedes, RedBull and Philip Morris invest 100's of millions into it. If Ferrari did something like cheat the fuel flow and won with that car, Ferrari should be banned for a year, or at least there will be a big controversie. Not good for the platform.

What the teams do want, with McLaren up front, is a weaker political Ferrari and a different distribution of the F1 money.

So, even is teams know the whole truth, they won't spill the beans, it will cost them money. They want to get paid to keep it to themselves.