FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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Unc1eM0nty
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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Red Rock Mutley wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:22 pm
I would be pointing at the Mercedes and saying, isn't DAS the same situation, and if they're not having a gentleman's agreement not to use it, why are we?
Please don't confuse this with DAS, legal or illegal this is a stystem that Mercedes have been completely open with, they explained what it does and they've even nameed it.

Ferrari on the other hand have never acknowlaged anything, all they said last year was there's nothign to see move on

And then this !

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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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Mandrake wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:46 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:38 pm
TAG wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:22 pm
But remember, this year when Ferrari are much slower on the straights, it's because they added drag.
It is rather convenient isn’t it.

The FIA issue a TD at the US GP and from then on.
Ferrari suddenly lose their advantage at the US GP and from then on.
The FIA take a Honda PU and a Ferrari PU to do investigations.
The FIA introduce a 2nd fuel flow sensor that the teams cannot get data from during pre-season testing
Ferrari during pre-season testing seem to be well down on pace.
The FIA release a statement in which they say they and Ferrari have a secret agreement with regard to the investigation.

Have I missed anything?
They seized an engine at the end of the season. After the TD the engine was supposedly less powerful (Ferrari said they added DF), so the assumption here is that the engine was made compliant. Why should Ferrari give them an engine pre-TD spec to analyse? How would the FIA with their limited testing possibilities find out if the engine is illegal? How would they be able to determine if a potential illegal device was ever used in a race?
The FIA can seize whatever engine they like. They don’t let Ferrari decide which engine to give them. Remember that every PU component is part of an allotted permitted amount and is cataloged, marked and sealed by the FIA. Ferrari couldn’t just say ‘that’s the PU, honest guv!’ The FIA may well of taken PU 1,2 or 3. You’re just assuming the FIA took the last one which would make no sense from an investigational stand point.

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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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From the statement: ""The FIA and Scuderia Ferrari have agreed to a number of technical commitments that will improve the monitoring of all Formula 1 power units for forthcoming championship seasons"

I don't understand this line and how Ferrari can assist with monitoring other manufactures PU's. I'm sure I'm reading it wrong but I don't know how that should be interpreted.

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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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KeiKo403 wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:14 pm
From the statement: ""The FIA and Scuderia Ferrari have agreed to a number of technical commitments that will improve the monitoring of all Formula 1 power units for forthcoming championship seasons"

I don't understand this line and how Ferrari can assist with monitoring other manufactures PU's. I'm sure I'm reading it wrong but I don't know how that should be interpreted.
They are saying that, with the work that was done with Ferrari, FIA will now employ more methods to improve the monitoring of all Formula 1 power units for forthcoming championship seasons.

In other words, we will make sure the other teams do not do the same what Ferari did?!
Last edited by bauc on Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lotus102
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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dren wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:01 pm
I agree. It's pretty shady. Surely the FIA expected this blow back, even with their strategic press statement timing.
As the Motor Sport piece pointed out, they didn't have to issue a statement at all. They could have just implemented the second fuel flow meter and if asked said they were covering off something that they feared teams might do, rather than something they believed a team to have already done. But they didn't do that, they came right out and said there had been a settlement.

So they know very well it will kick up an almighty storm. The question is why they didn't keep it quiet, didn't take any action, but made a calculation to set the hares running

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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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KeiKo403 wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:14 pm
From the statement: ""The FIA and Scuderia Ferrari have agreed to a number of technical commitments that will improve the monitoring of all Formula 1 power units for forthcoming championship seasons"

I don't understand this line and how Ferrari can assist with monitoring other manufactures PU's. I'm sure I'm reading it wrong but I don't know how that should be interpreted.
I don't expect the Ferrari to be involved in monitoring other teams (although, by now we can expect everything from the FIA I suppose). Probably they will help FIA uncover loopholes in the regulations/advice in what kind of monitoring measures would be effective in uncovering exploitation or abuse of loopholes, gray areas, and outright (but hard to detect) legal breaches. The monitoring and enforcement itself should be in hands of the FIA. Of course, there is one big flashing warning light here: if Ferrari assists in finding loopholes, they could opt to 'forget' mentioning some of these loopholes to the FIA and exploit them themselves, and they are better aware than others where the blind spots of monitoring are. Now it would be extremely stupid to abuse this position considering the current suspicion surrounding them... then again, I would not at all be surprised. But that's all ifs and thens, let's not go there too much.

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TAG
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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KeiKo403 wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:14 pm
From the statement: ""The FIA and Scuderia Ferrari have agreed to a number of technical commitments that will improve the monitoring of all Formula 1 power units for forthcoming championship seasons"

I don't understand this line and how Ferrari can assist with monitoring other manufactures PU's. I'm sure I'm reading it wrong but I don't know how that should be interpreted.
There is no interpretation, that's a line written by lawyers to not say anything or mean whatever the reader wants it to mean, in other words, vague by design. I'm glad the other teams are willing to take this to a court for clarification.
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DChemTech
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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Lotus102 wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:20 pm
dren wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:01 pm
I agree. It's pretty shady. Surely the FIA expected this blow back, even with their strategic press statement timing.
As the Motor Sport piece pointed out, they didn't have to issue a statement at all. They could have just implemented the second fuel flow meter and if asked said they were covering off something that they feared teams might do, rather than something they believed a team to have already done. But they didn't do that, they came right out and said there had been a settlement.

So they know very well it will kick up an almighty storm. The question is why they didn't keep it quiet, didn't take any action, but made a calculation to set the hares running
Yeah, as far as trying to avoid drawing attention, this statement is not really effective.
Last edited by turbof1 on Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: language

KeiKo403
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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DChemTech wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:21 pm
KeiKo403 wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:14 pm
From the statement: ""The FIA and Scuderia Ferrari have agreed to a number of technical commitments that will improve the monitoring of all Formula 1 power units for forthcoming championship seasons"

I don't understand this line and how Ferrari can assist with monitoring other manufactures PU's. I'm sure I'm reading it wrong but I don't know how that should be interpreted.
I don't expect the Ferrari to be involved in monitoring other teams (although, by now we can expect everything from the FIA I suppose). Probably they will help FIA uncover loopholes in the regulations/advice in what kind of monitoring measures would be effective in uncovering exploitation or abuse of loopholes, gray areas, and outright (but hard to detect) legal breaches. The monitoring and enforcement itself should be in hands of the FIA. Of course, there is one big flashing warning light here: if Ferrari assists in finding loopholes, they could opt to 'forget' mentioning some of these loopholes to the FIA and exploit them themselves, and they are better aware than others where the blind spots of monitoring are. Now it would be extremely stupid to abuse this position considering the current suspicion surrounding them... then again, I would not at all be surprised. But that's all ifs and thens, let's not go there too much.
So i'm thinking poacher turned gamekeeper who still a poacher?
If Ferrari will be helping the FIA in closing loopholes will this mean that Ferrari can turn around at somepoint and say, if you want us to do this then you'll need to pay us....they'll be working under a cost cap next year, they won't have money to 'waste' just to help the FIA.

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turbof1
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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Interesting piece at motorsport.com:
In some cases, teams have been able to reconvene stewards after events to look at cases when a new element has emerged.

But according to the FIA's International Sporting Code, this avenue has been closed off because of time limits. A right of review needs to be brought 14 calendar days after the publication of the final classification of a competitor, and no less than four days prior to the FIA prize-giving ceremony.

One of the reasons for the FIA electing to reach a settlement over the Ferrari matter is that it was likely unable to prove beyond doubt that the team had broken the regulations, while the outfit itself could not show that it had definitely complied with the rules at all time.

In such a stalemate scenario, the options were therefore either to reach an agreement to move on, or take it further and go to court.

However, article 2.7 of Formula 1's technical regulations states that: "It is the duty of each competitor to satisfy the FIA technical delegate and the stewards that his automobile complies with these regulations in their entirety at all times during an Event."

The FIA statutes do offer the chance for the governing body to open a disciplinary inquiry if there are suspicions that the rules have been broken. The matter could then be submitted to the FIA International Tribunal.

One avenue for teams could be to ask the FIA to pursue this route, especially if they have more detailed information regarding the Ferrari power unit than the governing body has been made aware of up until now.
I don't know exactly how the teams would legally force the FIA to reveal details in the confines of the FIA's regulation. I don't think that is possible without the FIA's help (and since it is in effect a case against the FIA, I don't think the FIA would be helping).

However, there is still civil court.
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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I think the FIA found out exactly what was going on and knew it was illegal with no grey area etc. If something was a grey are Ferrari would have been arguing against it and things would have most likely been in the open.

It was not in the financial and reputational interest of the FIA, Formula One and Ferrari to do anything more than a telling off. I really hope the other teams pursue this to the end as conversely, it was in their financial interests.

I keep thinking back to the FIA smugly declaring the Ferrari PU was totally legal about a year or so ago. I hope somebody in the press resurrects the statements the FIA had made.

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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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kimetic wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:50 am
Even Formula1.com is reporting it:
Seven Formula 1 teams have released a joint statement expressing their shock and surprise
We hereby state publicly our shared commitment to pursue full and proper disclosure in this matter, to ensure that our sport treats all competitors fairly and equally
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... DYVEz.html
214270 wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:07 pm
I suspect all that signed will have this statement on their newsites.

McLaren: https://www.mclaren.com/racing/team/sta ... cing-2020/
Williams: https://www.williamsf1.com/news/2020/03 ... -statement
Seems some sort of Striesand Effect is taking place with this topic. Waiting for the press release that the FIA has entered a secret agreement with the remaining teams!

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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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The relevant regulation that almost certainly is the basis for the dispute is this one:

5.10.5 Any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow rate or to store and recycle fuel after the measurement point is prohibited.

That is a "catch all" rule that says that ANY attempt to circumvent the fuel flow limit regulation by any means is not allowed.
The statement that Ferrari cannot be found in breach of the regulations is incorrect. A team was found to have exceeded the fuel flow rate limit in 2019 and had times disallowed as a result. There was no evidence that they had tamped with any device. They were still penalized.
No, the AMG team is furious, as are the other 6 teams not supplied by Ferrari. When Toyota installed an ingenious device on their rally cars to get around the air mass flow limit and it was discovered by the FIA, they were excluded from the WRC for an entire season. "Spygate" cost Mclaren $100m. To the other teams, it looks like Ferrari slid sideways away from what could have been a considerable penalty.

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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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AMG.Tzan wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:56 am
Expected to be honest!

I mean what was the FIA and Ferrari expecting the others to do?? Say...oooh so nice of you that you settled it that way! After all both Mercedes and Mclaren were the ones that got a 100M fine and an exclusion for things that even Ron Dennis himself didn't know! Ferrari knew as a team what they were doing...if they were truly cheating then this should be an exclusion from the 2019 WCC!

An exclusion for Ferrari means more money for the other teams from gaining a higher place in the WCC! So no shock here seeing all the other teams getting together on this!

The question is: Were Ferrari cheating or did they just find a loophole within the Engine Regulations to make more Horsepower?? Because if it was a loophole...then you can't blame someone for being clever! But if it was a loophole like Mercedes's oil burning thing...wouldn't they just close the loophole for next season and say...oh we've found this loophole...we'll just close it?? For FIA to release such a statement it really looks suspicious! :?
What if it is a loophole but is really simple/easy to implement? So they agreed to close it for new rules but not reveal it sooner than the end of the season.
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

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turbof1
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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Mr.G wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:45 pm
What if it is a loophole but is really simple/easy to implement? So they agreed to close it for new rules but not reveal it sooner than the end of the season.
In the past they would have allowed the loophole and just state it was legal, after which they introduced new regulations at the earlies possible moment to close off the loophole. Just like they did with the double diffuser for instance. Revealing something is legal is not the same as revealing what the loophole is, for the record. They could have said "Nothing has found illegally regarding the Ferrari PU" or something similar.
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