The Sky panels Top 5 drivers.

[NathanOlder]

Even if Hamilton had won Canada and Button DNF he still would have finished ahead of Lewis.

Think you need to check again buddy.

[Wass85]

Even if Hamilton had won Canada and Button DNF he still would have finished ahead of Lewis.

Think you need to check again buddy.

You are correct, you're presuming that Hamilton would have won the race though.

I think at the time of the crash Hamilton was probably the fastest or second fastest car on the grid but he wasn't the best and still isn't at making strategy calls, who knows what would have happened had he not collided with Button.

[NathanOlder]

Even if Hamilton had won Canada and Button DNF he still would have finished ahead of Lewis.

Think you need to check again buddy.

You are correct, you're presuming that Hamilton would have won the race though.

I think at the time of the crash Hamilton was probably the fastest or second fastest car on the grid but he wasn't the best and still isn't at making strategy calls, who knows what would have happened had he not collided with Button.

Well Lewis has proven to be the very best wet weather driver since probably Senna, so he had every chance to win it. Even if Jenson was in the race.

[Wass85]

Think you need to check again buddy.

You are correct, you're presuming that Hamilton would have won the race though.

I think at the time of the crash Hamilton was probably the fastest or second fastest car on the grid but he wasn't the best and still isn't at making strategy calls, who knows what would have happened had he not collided with Button.

Well Lewis has proven to be the very best wet weather driver since probably Senna, so he had every chance to win it. Even if Jenson was in the race.

Yes but in drying conditions Button was usually superior to Hamilton, recall Brazil 2012?

I can't remember but wasn't Hamilton expecting a penalty for taking Webber out at the start?

[Just_a_fan]

Schumacher was just untouchable in his pomp and although he never faced a Prost or a Senna he dominated each and every teammate he faced. I really do think he reached a point of relentless speed never seen before in F1.

Schumacher had team orders and a series of "quick enough but never going to win the title" drivers alongside him for much of his career. He certainly never shared a team with a World Champion, let alone 3 of them (other than a handful of races with Piquet at the very end of his career). Schuie never had to fight a team mate for a title. At Benetton, his team mates were people like Brundle and Patrese - neither likely to be troubling for the top order. Then Leyto, Verstappen and Herbert. Again, all ok but never a real challenge. Any of the top guys would have handled them as team mates. At Ferrari he had Irvine and Rubens - ditto.

If Button beating Hamilton in 2011 means Hamilton can't be considered to be "great" then presumably the fact that both Button (2015) and Hamilton (2007) beat Alonso means Alonso is also not "great"? See how easy it becomes to dismiss all drivers as "not great" on the basis of one or two seasons?

Actually, thinking about it, Schuie did share a team for 3 seasons with a future World Champion. And he lost 3-0 to him. The same future champion that lost 3-1 to Hamilton.

See? Tricky this game, isn't it?

One thing about Schumacher is that he was tainted by cheating. He deliberately crashed in to Villeneuve and probably did the same to Hill the year before. Then there was his "off" at Monaco that just happened to stop Alonso trying for pole (a trick used by Rosberg years later).

[Wass85]

Schumacher was just untouchable in his pomp and although he never faced a Prost or a Senna he dominated each and every teammate he faced. I really do think he reached a point of relentless speed never seen before in F1.

Schumacher had team orders and a series of "quick enough but never going to win the title" drivers alongside him for much of his career. He certainly never shared a team with a World Champion, let alone 3 of them (other than a handful of races with Piquet at the very end of his career). Schuie never had to fight a team mate for a title. At Benetton, his team mates were people like Brundle and Patrese - neither likely to be troubling for the top order. Then Leyto, Verstappen and Herbert. Again, all ok but never a real challenge. Any of the top guys would have handled them as team mates. At Ferrari he had Irvine and Rubens - ditto.

If Button beating Hamilton in 2011 means Hamilton can't be considered to be "great" then presumably the fact that both Button (2015) and Hamilton (2007) beat Alonso means Alonso is also not "great"? See how easy it becomes to dismiss all drivers as "not great" on the basis of one or two seasons?

Actually, thinking about it, Schuie did share a team for 3 seasons with a future World Champion. And he lost 3-0 to him. The same future champion that lost 3-1 to Hamilton.

See? Tricky this game, isn't it?

Fair point about team orders but do you think any of those drivers would have challenged him if strategy was split down the middle?

I think we both can admit all was not as it seems in 2007, Alonso really upset Ron Dennis and do you honestly think he was given a fair shake once he'd alienated himself?

That's not to say Lewis didn't perform amazingly but let's not forget Alonso was brand new to the team as well.

As for Schumacher come on you can't be serious, to say how close Rosberg pushed Hamilton, Schumacher performed well to say he was around 40 years old and had been out of the sport for 3 years.

[Just_a_fan]

Schumacher was just untouchable in his pomp and although he never faced a Prost or a Senna he dominated each and every teammate he faced. I really do think he reached a point of relentless speed never seen before in F1.

Schumacher had team orders and a series of "quick enough but never going to win the title" drivers alongside him for much of his career. He certainly never shared a team with a World Champion, let alone 3 of them (other than a handful of races with Piquet at the very end of his career). Schuie never had to fight a team mate for a title. At Benetton, his team mates were people like Brundle and Patrese - neither likely to be troubling for the top order. Then Leyto, Verstappen and Herbert. Again, all ok but never a real challenge. Any of the top guys would have handled them as team mates. At Ferrari he had Irvine and Rubens - ditto.

If Button beating Hamilton in 2011 means Hamilton can't be considered to be "great" then presumably the fact that both Button (2015) and Hamilton (2007) beat Alonso means Alonso is also not "great"? See how easy it becomes to dismiss all drivers as "not great" on the basis of one or two seasons?

Actually, thinking about it, Schuie did share a team for 3 seasons with a future World Champion. And he lost 3-0 to him. The same future champion that lost 3-1 to Hamilton.

See? Tricky this game, isn't it?

Fair point about team orders but do you think any of those drivers would have challenged him if strategy was split down the middle?

I think we both can admit all was not as it seems in 2007, Alonso really upset Ron Dennis and do you honestly think he was given a fair shake once he'd alienated himself?

That's not to say Lewis didn't perform amazingly but let's not forget Alonso was brand new to the team as well.

As for Schumacher come on you can't be serious, to say how close Rosberg pushed Hamilton, Schumacher performed well to say he was around 40 years old and had been out of the sport for 3 years.

Team orders take off pressure. If you know your team mate won't do anything to jeopardise you, you know you're got some backup etc. If the car is a winning car and the other guy with that same car isn't allowed to win, that's going to a be weight off your mind, isn't it?

Alonso used the Ferrari data as a way of trying to blackmail Ron Dennis. He wanted Hamilton's wings to be clipped because Hamilton was making him look a bit silly on track. Sadly for Alonso, Dennis was the last guy on the grid he should have tried that with. Once Alonso had tried the blackmail trick, it's no wonder the team weren't on his side. Make bed, lie in it.

Yes, Hamilton was new to the team but he was a rookie. Every day was Christmas for him that year. Alonso was an old hand and should have been able to handle the pressure. But he didn't. That's to Alonso's "shame" (I don't mean shame but can't think of a better word at the moment).

Fangio was 40 when he won his first title. And yes, those cars were beasts to drive, especially on the tracks they drove and for the length of time they raced - races of nearly 3 hours were the norm. On tracks like the original Spa, the original Nordschleife. In '54, the Nordschleife race took 3hr45min - a race length not beaten until the 2011 Canadian GP and that was suspended midway through, of course.

[Wass85]

Schumacher had team orders and a series of "quick enough but never going to win the title" drivers alongside him for much of his career. He certainly never shared a team with a World Champion, let alone 3 of them (other than a handful of races with Piquet at the very end of his career). Schuie never had to fight a team mate for a title. At Benetton, his team mates were people like Brundle and Patrese - neither likely to be troubling for the top order. Then Leyto, Verstappen and Herbert. Again, all ok but never a real challenge. Any of the top guys would have handled them as team mates. At Ferrari he had Irvine and Rubens - ditto.

If Button beating Hamilton in 2011 means Hamilton can't be considered to be "great" then presumably the fact that both Button (2015) and Hamilton (2007) beat Alonso means Alonso is also not "great"? See how easy it becomes to dismiss all drivers as "not great" on the basis of one or two seasons?

Actually, thinking about it, Schuie did share a team for 3 seasons with a future World Champion. And he lost 3-0 to him. The same future champion that lost 3-1 to Hamilton.

See? Tricky this game, isn't it?

Fair point about team orders but do you think any of those drivers would have challenged him if strategy was split down the middle?

I think we both can admit all was not as it seems in 2007, Alonso really upset Ron Dennis and do you honestly think he was given a fair shake once he'd alienated himself?

That's not to say Lewis didn't perform amazingly but let's not forget Alonso was brand new to the team as well.

As for Schumacher come on you can't be serious, to say how close Rosberg pushed Hamilton, Schumacher performed well to say he was around 40 years old and had been out of the sport for 3 years.

Team orders take off pressure. If you know your team mate won't do anything to jeopardise you, you know you're got some backup etc. If the car is a winning car and the other guy with that same car isn't allowed to win, that's going to a be weight off your mind, isn't it?

Alonso used the Ferrari data as a way of trying to blackmail Ron Dennis. He wanted Hamilton's wings to be clipped because Hamilton was making him look a bit silly on track. Sadly for Alonso, Dennis was the last guy on the grid he should have tried that with. Once Alonso had tried the blackmail trick, it's no wonder the team weren't on his side. Make bed, lie in it.

Yes, Hamilton was new to the team but he was a rookie. Every day was Christmas for him that year. Alonso was an old hand and should have been able to handle the pressure. But he didn't. That's to Alonso's "shame" (I don't mean shame but can't think of a better word at the moment).

Fangio was 40 when he won his first title. And yes, those cars were beasts to drive, especially on the tracks they drove and for the length of time they raced - races of nearly 3 hours were the norm. On tracks like the original Spa, the original Nordschleife. In '54, the Nordschleife race took 3hr45min - a race length not beaten until the 2011 Canadian GP and that was suspended midway through, of course.

Yes of course it does but you think the teams just decided to put all their eggs in one basket without good reason?

Schumacher was clearly head and shoulders above his teammates so unless you have the luxury of letting your teammates race it out for the title, backing the fastest driver is just common sense.

Oh I agree, Alonso handled the situation terribly and it's on him but don't you agree that a driver at war with the team wouldn't be getting any help from them? You also don't think this will interfere with how a driver performs?

Alonso running away from the fight definitely mars his legacy in the sport.

I just don't think you can use Fangio as an example of what an older driver should do in this day and age.

[Wass85]

Fair point about team orders but do you think any of those drivers would have challenged him if strategy was split down the middle?

I think we both can admit all was not as it seems in 2007, Alonso really upset Ron Dennis and do you honestly think he was given a fair shake once he'd alienated himself?

That's not to say Lewis didn't perform amazingly but let's not forget Alonso was brand new to the team as well.

As for Schumacher come on you can't be serious, to say how close Rosberg pushed Hamilton, Schumacher performed well to say he was around 40 years old and had been out of the sport for 3 years.

Team orders take off pressure. If you know your team mate won't do anything to jeopardise you, you know you're got some backup etc. If the car is a winning car and the other guy with that same car isn't allowed to win, that's going to a be weight off your mind, isn't it?

Alonso used the Ferrari data as a way of trying to blackmail Ron Dennis. He wanted Hamilton's wings to be clipped because Hamilton was making him look a bit silly on track. Sadly for Alonso, Dennis was the last guy on the grid he should have tried that with. Once Alonso had tried the blackmail trick, it's no wonder the team weren't on his side. Make bed, lie in it.

Yes, Hamilton was new to the team but he was a rookie. Every day was Christmas for him that year. Alonso was an old hand and should have been able to handle the pressure. But he didn't. That's to Alonso's "shame" (I don't mean shame but can't think of a better word at the moment).

Fangio was 40 when he won his first title. And yes, those cars were beasts to drive, especially on the tracks they drove and for the length of time they raced - races of nearly 3 hours were the norm. On tracks like the original Spa, the original Nordschleife. In '54, the Nordschleife race took 3hr45min - a race length not beaten until the 2011 Canadian GP and that was suspended midway through, of course.

Yes of course it does but you think the teams just decided to put all their eggs in one basket without good reason?

Schumacher was clearly head and shoulders above his teammates so unless you have the luxury of letting your teammates race it out for the title, backing the fastest driver is just common sense.

Oh I agree, Alonso handled the situation terribly and it's on him but don't you agree that a driver at war with the team wouldn't be getting any help from them? You also don't think this will interfere with how a driver performs?

Alonso running away from the fight definitely mars his legacy in the sport.

I just don't think you can use Fangio as an example of what an older driver should do in this day and age.

[Wass85]

Team orders take off pressure. If you know your team mate won't do anything to jeopardise you, you know you're got some backup etc. If the car is a winning car and the other guy with that same car isn't allowed to win, that's going to a be weight off your mind, isn't it?

Alonso used the Ferrari data as a way of trying to blackmail Ron Dennis. He wanted Hamilton's wings to be clipped because Hamilton was making him look a bit silly on track. Sadly for Alonso, Dennis was the last guy on the grid he should have tried that with. Once Alonso had tried the blackmail trick, it's no wonder the team weren't on his side. Make bed, lie in it.

Yes, Hamilton was new to the team but he was a rookie. Every day was Christmas for him that year. Alonso was an old hand and should have been able to handle the pressure. But he didn't. That's to Alonso's "shame" (I don't mean shame but can't think of a better word at the moment).

Fangio was 40 when he won his first title. And yes, those cars were beasts to drive, especially on the tracks they drove and for the length of time they raced - races of nearly 3 hours were the norm. On tracks like the original Spa, the original Nordschleife. In '54, the Nordschleife race took 3hr45min - a race length not beaten until the 2011 Canadian GP and that was suspended midway through, of course.

Yes of course it does but you think the teams just decided to put all their eggs in one basket without good reason?

Schumacher was clearly head and shoulders above his teammates so unless you have the luxury of letting your teammates race it out for the title, backing the fastest driver is just common sense.

Oh I agree, Alonso handled the situation terribly and it's on him but don't you agree that a driver at war with the team wouldn't be getting any help from them? You also don't think this will interfere with how a driver performs?

Alonso running away from the fight definitely mars his legacy in the sport.

I just don't think you can use Fangio as an example of what an older driver should do in this day and age.

Serious question. Do you think Hamilton would beat a prime Rosberg, aged 40 years old after having a 3 year hiatus?

[Jolle]

I think Schumacher was in a very good position that Briatore and Brawn recognised his talent and build a team around him, including a team mate. Briatore repeated this trick with Alonso. This doesn’t mean Schumacher (or Alonso) was better or worse then Hamilton, just makes Briatore having a different view of how a team must be run compared to Ron Dennis, who likes two competitive drivers.

In Alonso’s defence he came from a very protected environment within Renaut/Briatore where everything was build around him succeeding. Suddenly he had to look over his shoulder because not the whole team had his back. Hamilton, coming from McLaren, was always used to have to be competitive with his own team, so less of a shock for him.

[Wass85]

I think Schumacher was in a very good position that Briatore and Brawn recognised his talent and build a team around him, including a team mate. Briatore repeated this trick with Alonso. This doesn’t mean Schumacher (or Alonso) was better or worse then Hamilton, just makes Briatore having a different view of how a team must be run compared to Ron Dennis, who likes two competitive drivers.

In Alonso’s defence he came from a very protected environment within Renaut/Briatore where everything was build around him succeeding. Suddenly he had to look over his shoulder because not the whole team had his back. Hamilton, coming from McLaren, was always used to have to be competitive with his own team, so less of a shock for him.

Yes and this almost certainly benefited Schumacher and Alonso if it is true.

If Hamilton had the same attitude then he likely wouldn't have lost to Button in 2011. He made out to the public he didn't care who is teammate was and that he wasn't keen on being a clear number one but he has now changed his thoughts on the matter. He has finally realised that to achieve great success it's in his and the teams interest to not have teammates nuking it out on track.

[Jolle]

I think Schumacher was in a very good position that Briatore and Brawn recognised his talent and build a team around him, including a team mate. Briatore repeated this trick with Alonso. This doesn’t mean Schumacher (or Alonso) was better or worse then Hamilton, just makes Briatore having a different view of how a team must be run compared to Ron Dennis, who likes two competitive drivers.

In Alonso’s defence he came from a very protected environment within Renaut/Briatore where everything was build around him succeeding. Suddenly he had to look over his shoulder because not the whole team had his back. Hamilton, coming from McLaren, was always used to have to be competitive with his own team, so less of a shock for him.

Yes and this almost certainly benefited Schumacher and Alonso if it is true.

If Hamilton had the same attitude then he likely wouldn't have lost to Button in 2011. He made out to the public he didn't care who is teammate was and that he wasn't keen on being a clear number one but he has now changed his thoughts on the matter. He has finally realised that to achieve great success it's in his and the teams interest to not have teammates nuking it out on track.

Nah, don’t think he was/is in a position to call those kinds of shots. Team managers decide what kind of team that want. On the other side, a team filosofie also has to match the kind of driver. Alonso is clearly a driver who needs full support instead of competition to get the best out of himself while someone like Button needs to be challenged. One isn’t better or worse then another, just differences.

[Wass85]

I think Schumacher was in a very good position that Briatore and Brawn recognised his talent and build a team around him, including a team mate. Briatore repeated this trick with Alonso. This doesn’t mean Schumacher (or Alonso) was better or worse then Hamilton, just makes Briatore having a different view of how a team must be run compared to Ron Dennis, who likes two competitive drivers.

In Alonso’s defence he came from a very protected environment within Renaut/Briatore where everything was build around him succeeding. Suddenly he had to look over his shoulder because not the whole team had his back. Hamilton, coming from McLaren, was always used to have to be competitive with his own team, so less of a shock for him.

Yes and this almost certainly benefited Schumacher and Alonso if it is true.

If Hamilton had the same attitude then he likely wouldn't have lost to Button in 2011. He made out to the public he didn't care who is teammate was and that he wasn't keen on being a clear number one but he has now changed his thoughts on the matter. He has finally realised that to achieve great success it's in his and the teams interest to not have teammates nuking it out on track.

Nah, don’t think he was/is in a position to call those kinds of shots. Team managers decide what kind of team that want. On the other side, a team filosofie also has to match the kind of driver. Alonso is clearly a driver who needs full support instead of competition to get the best out of himself while someone like Button needs to be challenged. One isn’t better or worse then another, just differences.

Fair point it's all about the principles of the team but how do you explain the Hakkinen/Coulthard situation?

[Jolle]

Yes and this almost certainly benefited Schumacher and Alonso if it is true.

If Hamilton had the same attitude then he likely wouldn't have lost to Button in 2011. He made out to the public he didn't care who is teammate was and that he wasn't keen on being a clear number one but he has now changed his thoughts on the matter. He has finally realised that to achieve great success it's in his and the teams interest to not have teammates nuking it out on track.

Nah, don’t think he was/is in a position to call those kinds of shots. Team managers decide what kind of team that want. On the other side, a team filosofie also has to match the kind of driver. Alonso is clearly a driver who needs full support instead of competition to get the best out of himself while someone like Button needs to be challenged. One isn’t better or worse then another, just differences.

Fair point it's all about the principles of the team but how do you explain the Hakkinen/Coulthard situation?

Team views change over the years. Same as with Kovalainen following Alonso or Bottas when Rosberg left.

I think DC wasn’t brought in as a second driver, he was quite the rising star at Williams. Just that Hakkinen was faster. It was more an organic one-two then at Ferrari those years where the whole team was build to get the best out of one driver.