TDs vs ERS power management and oil consumption

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Polite
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TDs vs ERS power management and oil consumption

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https://the-race.com/formula-1/fia-intr ... lampdowns/


to be mischievous one might think that Ferrari was stopped with the TD on the fuelflow;
AMG is now stopped with the TD on the oil consumption;
Honda or Renault stopped with the TD on the energy management of the ERS.

any thoughts?

Polite
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Re: TDs vs ERS power management and oil consumption

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really no thoughts?..

what is really strange the Renault will not have the new ERS sensor.. are they the only fairplayer? :mrgreen:

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nzjrs
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Re: TDs vs ERS power management and oil consumption

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I hope nobody replied because your framing is an invitation for another troll thread like every other thread discussing the ferarri PU and the settlement with the FIA.
Last edited by nzjrs on Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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henry
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Re: TDs vs ERS power management and oil consumption

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Without details of the TDs I don’t think it possible to have an opinion.

The declared decision to only put the new sensors on the 3 leading contenders seems odd, unless there is a shortage of resources to make the change on the whole field.

As ever the FIA manage to make a change in a way guaranteed to generate speculation and confusion. Plus ca change.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Alexf1
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Re: TDs vs ERS power management and oil consumption

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Just hope FIA is now on par with the engine manufacturers on knowledge cause it seems like it took a ... to catch a crook

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godlameroso
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Re: TDs vs ERS power management and oil consumption

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I can only form thoughs if I knew how the sensor is supposed to monitor energy distribution. Are they trying to stop any extra harvesting?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

saviour stivala
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Re: TDs vs ERS power management and oil consumption

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It does look and sounds that (T.D 0018/20) the sensor is meant to stop the possibility of ‘extra’ harvesting.

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henry
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Re: TDs vs ERS power management and oil consumption

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saviour stivala wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:40 pm
It does look and sounds that (T.D 0018/20) the sensor is meant to stop the possibility of ‘extra’ harvesting.
I can’t find anything that describes the changes to the sensors. What changes have you seen that suggest that extra harvesting is the target?
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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subcritical71
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Re: TDs vs ERS power management and oil consumption

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henry wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:32 pm
I can’t find anything that describes the changes to the sensors. What changes have you seen that suggest that extra harvesting is the target?
It would be nice to see the TD, wouldn’t it? From the reporting I’ve seen the interpretation could go both ways, but I think it goes back to the dual batteries and the FIA not understanding the systems which are being used. This new sensor may be just a way to get on top of that. It’s always been a bit of abracadabra how they are seeing all energy flows with just one sensor, for example in a two battery setup, one path (ES <> K) which is regulated, and another which is not ( ES <> H <> K).

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henry
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Re: TDs vs ERS power management and oil consumption

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subcritical71 wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:23 am
henry wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:32 pm
I can’t find anything that describes the changes to the sensors. What changes have you seen that suggest that extra harvesting is the target?
It would be nice to see the TD, wouldn’t it? From the reporting I’ve seen the interpretation could go both ways, but I think it goes back to the dual batteries and the FIA not understanding the systems which are being used. This new sensor may be just a way to get on top of that. It’s always been a bit of abracadabra how they are seeing all energy flows with just one sensor, for example in a two battery setup, one path (ES <> K) which is regulated, and another which is not ( ES <> H <> K).
Agreed. It would be nice to see the TD. I don’t think it has to do with 2 batteries. The 2 batteries would be internal to the ES and the sensor monitors the energy flow in and out of the ES and not it’s constituent components.

There are actually two sensors, one at the ES and one at the K. The only way I have been able to make sense of this arrangement is to assume that the monitoring software looks for simultaneous quantities of energy flows across the two sensors and treats that as following the ES <> K path. Given that there is an energy store between the two sensors a couple of frequencies involved, monitoring and reporting, it’s always seemed to me there might be opportunities for clever engineers to manipulate the values being monitored.

The TD may be as simple as saying that they must use a different, newly created, sensor and, like the fuel flow sensor, the teams are not allowed to know, or monitor, its operating frequencies. But that’s pure conjecture on my part.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Alexf1
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Re: TDs vs ERS power management and oil consumption

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LM10
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Re: TDs vs ERS power management and oil consumption

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Alexf1 wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:27 pm
There's more: https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ower-unit/
It’s funny that the article from “the-race” says Ferrari suggested the clampdowns and AMuS says that it was RedBull and Mercedes pushing for more TDs. But it seems they claim that only because RedBull and Mercedes have always been the ones asking for clarifications.

saviour stivala
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Re: TDs vs ERS power management and oil consumption

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The regulations contains an ‘ERS energy-flow diagram’ which at least to me means that is the only acceptable way the ‘ERS energy-flows’ according to the rules. The regulations also mandates what they believe are the necessary policing ‘sensors’ to be able to police ERS energy-flows in accordance with said energy-flow diagram.
According to ‘TD 0018/20’ an extra sensor is being mandated to measure ERS electrical power distribution.
If there was any doubt about any of the previous mandated sensors not being capable of policing the ‘energy-flow’ according to ‘energy-flow’ diagram, that sensor would have been replaced by an improved one.
An additional sensor only means that ‘possible’ ‘energy-flow’ other than what is shown on official ‘energy-flow’ diagram is going to be policed.
What can that ‘extra’ energy-flow’ be?. Some time ago an off-the-shelve Japanese magazine published what it claimed were Honda telemetry traces showing ‘extra’ energy-flow outside of the official regulator energy-flow diagram. That ‘extra’ energy-flow system clearly breaches the energy-flow regulations. Why didn’t the FIA took action about that claimed ‘extra’ energy-flow?. Firstly the policing sensors at the time could not trace that ‘extra’ energy-flow. At least not where the energy=flow ended. And secondly it was not like Honda was going to admit that the telemetry traces the Japanese off-the-shelve magazine published belonged to them.

Polite
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Re: TDs vs ERS power management and oil consumption

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nzjrs wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:20 pm
I hope nobody replied because your framing is an invitation for another troll thread like every other thread discussing the ferarri PU and the settlement with the FIA.
sorry for that but is not my intention.

as Henry said, it s impossible to find those TDs..

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nzjrs
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Re: TDs vs ERS power management and oil consumption

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Polite wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:19 pm
nzjrs wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:20 pm
I hope nobody replied because your framing is an invitation for another troll thread like every other thread discussing the ferarri PU and the settlement with the FIA.
sorry for that but is not my intention.

as Henry said, it s impossible to find those TDs..
Fair enough, I probbably overreacted, my apologies.

I also wish the TDs were published. I'm kind of amazed they are not leaked more frequently either.