Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Wass85
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:52 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:14 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:53 pm
@ wass Lewis was the only driver to take a pole position in 2011 other than the RedBull drivers. Nothing wrong with his pace there. As for going to a new team, Lewis went to a new team in 2013 and beat his team mate.
One swallow does not make a summer.
Lewis was often slower than Button in race pace, especially at the back end of the season.

And nice swerve, Hamilton joined the team before testing started for the 2013 season. Max was put in the seat after the season had already started.
I can excuse him for losing in 2016 then, but that would have made him super prepared for 2017...... ooops
I've forgot the exact circumstances but Max had one more DNF and was the faster driver for most part of the season.

Dan beat him fair and square but I can't recall Max ever being at a loss for pace?

Wass85
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:55 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:41 pm
Max has looked the complete driver now for a couple of seasons, what else does he have to do?

Just give him the car and he is ready to take the title.
This Lewis fan sure does love to put Lewis down and praise Max a hell of a lot. =D> =D>
What's your point?

We don't all wear blinkers pal, I can appreciate the kids talent.

Wynters
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Wass85 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:40 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:22 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:17 pm

So elite level then.
No, not elite level. Crass rubbish that isn't punished is not "elite", it's crass rubbish.

When your fellow drivers say "it's dangerous", that's not being elite.
Max has never been punished for this "crass rubbish" and most drivers have now copied his tactics.
Your claim that Verstappen has never been punished for his defending is factually incorrect. And that's whether you are referring to lost points as a consequence or punishment as handed down by the Stewards.

Additionally, there were relevant rule changes.
Wass85 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:41 pm
Just give him the car and he is ready to take the title.
A statement true for an average of 50% of the grid, possibly as much as 95% (team mate dependent).

With the car wake issues we have today and DRS, how relevant is defending and overtaking anyway? If a driver simply defends by driving a mistake-free race thus not allowing the chasing car to close within a second, is that any less skillful than forcing someone to go around the outside and then running them off the track? I'd argue the opposite.

And when it comes to absolute performance, all we can tell is that one team mate + car combo is quicker than the other team mate + car combo. We've no factual benchmarks to prove how good an absolute job someone is doing, only relative to their team mate. As an extreme example, perhaps the Williams is much faster than the Mercedes, but Russell and Latiffi really suck.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Wass85 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:40 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:14 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:04 am
Going by how many years they have been in F1 Verstappen is driving to a standard Hamilton can only dream of.

I don't think I need to remind anyone what Hamilton's 2011 was like, Max at the same stage in his career is driving beautifully.

Lewis' performances actually got worse from 2007-2011.
This is Max's SIXTH year in the sport so compare with Lewis 2012.

I think Max may be better polished as a driver, just due to Natural advancement of the sport. We could never dream of 17 year olds joining the sport as fully prepared drivers back in the early mid-2000s. Things have really advanced, guys like Stroll, Norris, Russel.. Are all well prepared!
I don't actually think Max was fully prepared for F1 it's just a combination of the the pre-2017 cars being relatively easy to drive and the fact he is a once in a generation talent.

Hamilton in 2007 was way more prepared for F1 than Max was in 2015 IMO.
Hamilton had a better junior career, and maybe drove more testing miles... But Hamilton went straight into the deep end against a 2XWDC. Max got time to build up against another Rookie that was thrown in at the last minute, and a Team built to groom him. And full 100% focus on F1. Hamilton on the other hand was being pushed out by Martin Whitmarsh in order to accommodate Jenson (I won't go into reasons why), he had deaths in his family, girlfriend pressuring him for marriage, father son problems, celebrity problems, media pressure, FIA pressure...so it was never a stable time for Lewis there. I would say Lewis did not come into his own until year 2012 when he really started focusing on F1 alone.

Anyway.. Back to the point. So I believe Max is polished enough to launch a serious and focused attack, but factors mentioned earlier in the thread will come into play.

Wynters
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Wass85 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:56 pm
I've forgot the exact circumstances but Max had one more DNF and was the faster driver for most part of the season.

Dan beat him fair and square but I can't recall Max ever being at a loss for pace?
Verstappen comfortably won the head-to-head qualifying too.

It was an odd season for the pair of them.

Wass85
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:06 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:40 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:14 pm


This is Max's SIXTH year in the sport so compare with Lewis 2012.

I think Max may be better polished as a driver, just due to Natural advancement of the sport. We could never dream of 17 year olds joining the sport as fully prepared drivers back in the early mid-2000s. Things have really advanced, guys like Stroll, Norris, Russel.. Are all well prepared!
I don't actually think Max was fully prepared for F1 it's just a combination of the the pre-2017 cars being relatively easy to drive and the fact he is a once in a generation talent.

Hamilton in 2007 was way more prepared for F1 than Max was in 2015 IMO.
Hamilton had a better junior career, and maybe drove more testing miles... But Hamilton went straight into the deep end against a 2XWDC. Max got time to build up against another Rookie that was thrown in at the last minute, and a Team built to groom him. And full 100% focus on F1. Hamilton on the other hand was being pushed out by Martin Whitmarsh in order to accommodate Jenson (I won't go into reasons why), he had deaths in his family, girlfriend pressuring him for marriage, father son problems, celebrity problems, media pressure, FIA pressure...so it was never a stable time for Lewis there. I would say Lewis did not come into his own until year 2012 when he really started focusing on F1 alone.

Anyway.. Back to the point. So I believe Max is polished enough to launch a serious and focused attack, but factors mentioned earlier in the thread will come into play.
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at?

Are you trying to claim Whitmarsh and the team didn't give Hamilton equal treatment?

Yes it looked like him and Button were smitten with each other but that's as far as it went, that certainly didn't hinder Hamilton in any way.

I understand you're looking for reasons for Hamilton's poor 2011 but I honestly think it's just a case of Button getting in the sweet spot with the car and mastering the tyres which Hamilton couldn't replicate.

Wass85
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Wynters wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:14 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:56 pm
I've forgot the exact circumstances but Max had one more DNF and was the faster driver for most part of the season.

Dan beat him fair and square but I can't recall Max ever being at a loss for pace?
Verstappen comfortably won the head-to-head qualifying too.

It was an odd season for the pair of them.
Just as I thought, it was clear to see Verstappen was superior to Ricciardo.

Wass85
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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So basically we have come to the conclusion Verstappen won't win the 2020 title because he doesn't have the car to do so.

Just imagine though without that failure he would be breathing down Hamilton's neck, he's having a brilliant season thus far.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Wass85 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:50 pm
Wynters wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:14 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:56 pm
I've forgot the exact circumstances but Max had one more DNF and was the faster driver for most part of the season.

Dan beat him fair and square but I can't recall Max ever being at a loss for pace?
Verstappen comfortably won the head-to-head qualifying too.

It was an odd season for the pair of them.
Just as I thought, it was clear to see Verstappen was superior to Ricciardo.
Its funny that in 2017 the records say Danny had 5 mechanical retirements, and Max had 4. So its strange how Danny wasn't as good as Max but still finished ahead of him. Add to that Max completely took Danny out in Hungary too.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Wass85 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:50 pm


I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at?

Are you trying to claim Whitmarsh and the team didn't give Hamilton equal treatment?

Yes it looked like him and Button were smitten with each other but that's as far as it went, that certainly didn't hinder Hamilton in any way.

I understand you're looking for reasons for Hamilton's poor 2011 but I honestly think it's just a case of Button getting in the sweet spot with the car and mastering the tyres which Hamilton couldn't replicate.
I wont get into that that any further. Those who were following McLaren closely know the story! Lewis was a troubled guy at the time, I don't have the endurance to discuss that here and it is off topic. The point I'm making is that I think Max is more "refined" an F1 driver compared to Lewis in the first five years. Full focus by him on driving, full focus on his team on him. Driver-wise He only lacks the championship experience.

Wass85
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:15 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:50 pm


I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at?

Are you trying to claim Whitmarsh and the team didn't give Hamilton equal treatment?

Yes it looked like him and Button were smitten with each other but that's as far as it went, that certainly didn't hinder Hamilton in any way.

I understand you're looking for reasons for Hamilton's poor 2011 but I honestly think it's just a case of Button getting in the sweet spot with the car and mastering the tyres which Hamilton couldn't replicate.
I wont get into that that any further. Those who were following McLaren closely know the story! Lewis was a troubled guy at the time, I don't have the endurance to discuss that here and it is off topic. The point I'm making is that I think Max is more "refined" an F1 driver compared to Lewis in the first five years. Full focus by him on driving, full focus on his team on him. Driver-wise He only lacks the championship experience.
I followed it all closely and had the same suspicions as you at the time but now looking back I realise I was just looking for excuses.

And yes I agree with you there, Max is an out and out racer whereas Lewis always seemed anti-establishment in a sense.

I've always believed if he had the mindset of Schumacher he would have achieved even more than he already has.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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What excuses are you talking about though? Not sure what you mean there.

Lewis still performed OK under the circumstances. He was troubled with focus but I think overall i was satisfied with his season. Beat teammate in qualy, finished ahead 50% of the time.. Only non-redbull pole position. 3 wins. It was decent but below his standards obviously.

Here is a report of troubled he was that season. I am not sure why you were looking for excuses. No excuses. This is unheard of for any driver today. Imagine if Max had these troubles in his fith year!

https://www.racefans.net/2011/12/13/201 ... -hamilton/

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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Wass85 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:27 pm

I've always believed if he had the mindset of Schumacher he would have achieved even more than he already has.
What, you mean cheating? Hamilton is matching Schumacher without cheating. I'll take that legacy over a few more wins any day.
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:04 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:27 pm

I've always believed if he had the mindset of Schumacher he would have achieved even more than he already has.
What, you mean cheating? Hamilton is matching Schumacher without cheating. I'll take that legacy over a few more wins any day.
No, by just being an out and out racing driver with no other distractions.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Mclaren tried to push that on him, and as you say, he wasn't at his best. Mercedes let him be his own man, and in that environment he IS untouchable. Clean racer and soon to be the best ever in almost all stats. Well done Lewis, us fans are grateful to witness such talent.
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