Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Wynters
Wynters
64
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

Post

Wass85 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:27 pm
And yes I agree with you there, Max is an out and out racer whereas Lewis always seemed anti-establishment in a sense.

I've always believed if he had the mindset of Schumacher he would have achieved even more than he already has.
It's certainly true that, if Hamilton had been willing to demand contractual number twos as is standard practice at the sharp end of the grid, then he'd have at least two more championships and many more race wins. What Schumacher and Hamilton do share though, is a willingness to constantly work harder and improve more. That's not universal by any means, even on the F1 grid. It makes sense given all the obstacles Hamilton's background would have presented. He needed to be better because he had neither the money, the connections or the look to make it easy.

We'll see who in the new crop has that same iron discipline.
Verstappen? Maybe he turned a corner last year or, perhaps, he's simply not been put under the necessary pressure to reveal his flaws again. He's driven a great season so far.
Leclerc? Has also been great. Second season in F1 he beat his formal team number one, a four time WDC. This season he's driven excellently, dragging that dog of a car to some great finishes. Styria was clumsy, a worrying brainfade. It'll be interesting to see if he can eliminate such moments. Probably my driver of the season so far.

Norris, Ocon, Russell? We'll have to wait and see.

Perhaps the topic for next year's thread should be "Why no one under the age of 25 will win in 2021"?

User avatar
ringo
236
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

Post

Racer X wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:24 am
I want to repeat what I said before the season started given a strong enough Car Max can more then win THIS season.

He just needs a strong enough Car to fight Hamilton if RedBull can give him a car that is within 1 second.

Then Max and a solid strategy can get the job done.

But yes obviously Hamilton is not easy to beat.

Which would just make anyone beating Hamilton all the more impressive.
You don't beat Hamilton over a season with a 1 second slower car. That just cannot make any sense. He would have a chance of winning with a 1 second faster car over the season. Redbull giving him a car within asecond would mean he would have to outpace, out-craft, out rain drive, out smart, out mind game, out-clean whistle drive Hamilton. And that aint happening. He is at least 6 years too early to attain that level of composure over Lewis.

regarding Hamilton's 2011. If we remember with more detail; he was a Massa magnet and he was too hell bent on beating Vettel who was in a much faster car. Lewis was not focusing much on beating Jenson. He was too myopic in outdriving the car to win at all costs. Any time he stretched himself to fight at the front Massa was there to tangle with him. This resulted in a few clashes and many lost points. Lewis was mainly gambling with a slower car to win his second championship and it didn't pan out. In the end Button ended up with more points simply by just driving around to the cars comfortable position. So i see 2011 as Lewis' gambling year where he had nothing to lose. We saw similar from Max when he was crashing into people trying to win races at all cost. All in all it was a season that taught Lewis the importance of the long game. At no point did i remember Jenson having a better feeling in the car or tyres. That was all rumours when people thought lewis was just a talented guy with no brains and a tyre eater.
Jenson had a lot of trouble balancing that car. Lewis however drove well but was trying too hard and taking to much risk at the front.
For Sure!!

Wass85
Wass85
-3
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:11 pm

Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

Post

ringo wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:20 am
Racer X wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:24 am
I want to repeat what I said before the season started given a strong enough Car Max can more then win THIS season.

He just needs a strong enough Car to fight Hamilton if RedBull can give him a car that is within 1 second.

Then Max and a solid strategy can get the job done.

But yes obviously Hamilton is not easy to beat.

Which would just make anyone beating Hamilton all the more impressive.
You don't beat Hamilton over a season with a 1 second slower car. That just cannot make any sense. He would have a chance of winning with a 1 second faster car over the season. Redbull giving him a car within asecond would mean he would have to outpace, out-craft, out rain drive, out smart, out mind game, out-clean whistle drive Hamilton. And that aint happening. He is at least 6 years too early to attain that level of composure over Lewis.

regarding Hamilton's 2011. If we remember with more detail; he was a Massa magnet and he was too hell bent on beating Vettel who was in a much faster car. Lewis was not focusing much on beating Jenson. He was too myopic in outdriving the car to win at all costs. Any time he stretched himself to fight at the front Massa was there to tangle with him. This resulted in a few clashes and many lost points. Lewis was mainly gambling with a slower car to win his second championship and it didn't pan out. In the end Button ended up with more points simply by just driving around to the cars comfortable position. So i see 2011 as Lewis' gambling year where he had nothing to lose. We saw similar from Max when he was crashing into people trying to win races at all cost. All in all it was a season that taught Lewis the importance of the long game. At no point did i remember Jenson having a better feeling in the car or tyres. That was all rumours when people thought lewis was just a talented guy with no brains and a tyre eater.
Jenson had a lot of trouble balancing that car. Lewis however drove well but was trying too hard and taking to much risk at the front.
I suggest you go and watch 2011 again.
Button especially towards the back end of the season had better race pace than Hamilton.

Again I see a lot of excuses, there's no way he was going to win the title in 2011 so that's a poor one at best.

Button was just plain better at keeping the tyres in good order and going faster for longer.

It's quite strange really as Hamilton was better in the first half of the season, you would have expected the opposite tbh.

dans79
dans79
299
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

Post

Wass85 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:41 am
It's quite strange really as Hamilton was better in the first half of the season, you would have expected the opposite tbh.
It's called not caring anymore. It was plain to see in 2011 that McLaren was lost as a team, and 2012 was just an extension of it. Team strategy mistakes, poor pit stops, poor reliability, I even remember whitless saying they didn't know why the 2012 car was so good.

Personally I think Lewis decided to leave in 2011 as McLaren was on the decline, he just didn't know were to go. Even now they are still a midfield team.
168 99 97 7

Wass85
Wass85
-3
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:11 pm

Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

Post

dans79 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:45 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:41 am
It's quite strange really as Hamilton was better in the first half of the season, you would have expected the opposite tbh.
It's called not caring anymore. It was plain to see in 2011 that McLaren was lost as a team, and 2012 was just an extension of it. Team strategy mistakes, poor pit stops, poor reliability, I even remember whitless saying they didn't know why the 2012 car was so good.

Personally I think Lewis decided to leave in 2011 as McLaren was on the decline, he just didn't know were to go. Even now they are still a midfield team.
Of course he cared, getting beat by your teammate is not easy to swallow.

Speaking of leaving teams, I believe Vettel told RB he was leaving them at the end of 2013.

User avatar
ringo
236
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

Post

Wass85 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:41 am


I suggest you go and watch 2011 again.
Button especially towards the back end of the season had better race pace than Hamilton.

Again I see a lot of excuses, there's no way he was going to win the title in 2011 so that's a poor one at best.

Button was just plain better at keeping the tyres in good order and going faster for longer.

It's quite strange really as Hamilton was better in the first half of the season, you would have expected the opposite tbh.
Lets go into detail race by race here. Because i could be wrong, but do not think your account is accurate.
For Sure!!

dans79
dans79
299
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

Post

Wass85 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:38 pm
Of course he cared, getting beat by your teammate is not easy to swallow.
As someone who's been an athlete, and often times better than my teammates, losing to a teammate occasionally is not this dire thing that so many people make it out to be.

For example, I'm willing to bet Max the care one bit, that when they left Mexico last year Albon was out scoring him 58-39.

The only time I've ever seen someone else or even myself get upset about losing to a teammate, was when it became clear they were truly better.
168 99 97 7

Wass85
Wass85
-3
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:11 pm

Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

Post

dans79 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:32 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:38 pm
Of course he cared, getting beat by your teammate is not easy to swallow.
As someone who's been an athlete, and often times better than my teammates, losing to a teammate occasionally is not this dire thing that so many people make it out to be.

For example, I'm willing to bet Max the care one bit, that when they left Mexico last year Albon was out scoring him 58-39.

The only time I've ever seen someone else or even myself get upset about losing to a teammate, was when it became clear they were truly better.
I competed in athletics at county level and played for a (at the time) Premier League sides academy, I don't think i get your comparison?
Last edited by Wass85 on Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wass85
Wass85
-3
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:11 pm

Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

Post

ringo wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:23 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:41 am


I suggest you go and watch 2011 again.
Button especially towards the back end of the season had better race pace than Hamilton.

Again I see a lot of excuses, there's no way he was going to win the title in 2011 so that's a poor one at best.

Button was just plain better at keeping the tyres in good order and going faster for longer.

It's quite strange really as Hamilton was better in the first half of the season, you would have expected the opposite tbh.
Lets go into detail race by race here. Because i could be wrong, but do not think your account is accurate.
You really want to go through all that? 😁
Honestly I kid you not, towards the back end of the season Button completely outclassed Hamilton.

User avatar
Big Tea
153
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

Post

dans79 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:32 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:38 pm
Of course he cared, getting beat by your teammate is not easy to swallow.
As someone who's been an athlete, and often times better than my teammates, losing to a teammate occasionally is not this dire thing that so many people make it out to be.

For example, I'm willing to bet Max the care one bit, that when they left Mexico last year Albon was out scoring him 58-39.

The only time I've ever seen someone else or even myself get upset about losing to a teammate, was when it became clear they were truly better.
I tended to get upset when I knew I should have won and it was MY fault I did not. Other people are 'just there'
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So don't kick.

Wass85
Wass85
-3
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:11 pm

Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

Post

Big Tea wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:53 pm
dans79 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:32 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:38 pm
Of course he cared, getting beat by your teammate is not easy to swallow.
As someone who's been an athlete, and often times better than my teammates, losing to a teammate occasionally is not this dire thing that so many people make it out to be.

For example, I'm willing to bet Max the care one bit, that when they left Mexico last year Albon was out scoring him 58-39.

The only time I've ever seen someone else or even myself get upset about losing to a teammate, was when it became clear they were truly better.
I tended to get upset when I knew I should have won and it was MY fault I did not. Other people are 'just there'
That's how I see it tbh but I think F1 is completely different, your teammate is your benchmark and biggest rival.

Being an athlete in a club is completely different IMO.

dans79
dans79
299
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

Post

Wass85 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:40 pm
dans79 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:32 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:38 pm
Of course he cared, getting beat by your teammate is not easy to swallow.
As someone who's been an athlete, and often times better than my teammates, losing to a teammate occasionally is not this dire thing that so many people make it out to be.

For example, I'm willing to bet Max the care one bit, that when they left Mexico last year Albon was out scoring him 58-39.

The only time I've ever seen someone else or even myself get upset about losing to a teammate, was when it became clear they were truly better.
I competed in athletics at county level and played for a (at the time) Premier League sides academy, I don't think i get your comparison?
I was a runner, in high school and in college, and running is a lot like formula 1. It's a team sport, but there is also a very strong teammate rivalry.

I didn't care when a teammate who I knew I was better than beat me. Like tea, The only time I really got upset, was when I didn't live up to my own standards.
168 99 97 7

Wass85
Wass85
-3
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:11 pm

Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

Post

Wass85 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:32 pm
dans79 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:21 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:40 pm


I competed in athletics at county level and played for a (at the time) Premier League sides academy, I don't think i get your comparison?
I was a runner, in high school and in college, and running is a lot like formula 1. It's a team sport, but there is also a very strong teammate rivalry.

I didn't care when a teammate who I knew I was better than beat me. Like tea, The only time I really got upset, was when I didn't live up to my own standards.
Unless it's a relay then I don't see it as a team sport. It's an individual sport and if you have members from your club or your school competing against you then they are a rival just as much as anyone and if you lose to them that's on you.

Losing hurts whatever the circumstances and winning matters.

I can only once remember Hamilton getting asked about 2011 and he quickly brushed it off, you could see he didn't want to go there.

Still it counts at the end of the day and is a mark against his great legacy.

Wass85
Wass85
-3
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:11 pm

Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

Post

I can see what route this is going down, I will be labeled a Hamilton hater just because I point out some of the negatives in his career.

On topic, Max without a doubt has the talent and mentality to win a title given the right car IMO.

What else is there to say, being in the right car at the right time is the most vital part of a title challenge.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
516
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

Post

Wass85 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:07 pm
I can see what route this is going down, I will be labeled a Hamilton hater just because I point out some of the negatives in his career.

On topic, Max without a doubt has the talent and mentality to win a title given the right car IMO.

What else is there to say, being in the right car at the right time is the most vital part of a title challenge.
When this thread was created Helmut Marko had us all fooled into thinking the cars were close in performance, so most people were expecting a championship fight going into the season.