Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Wass85
Wass85
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Last edited by Wass85 on Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tangodjango
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Moore77 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:43 am
tangodjango wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:27 am
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:10 am
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15164 ... like-senna

Some fine praise towards Verstappen from Button, he hasn't seen anyone annihilate their teammates like this kid is doing.
To qualify the Senna/Schumacher comparisons it's worth pointing out that with modern counting rules Senna would have lost to Prost both years they were teammates and Schumacher never really faced a Hakkinen type talent in his first career as a teammate on equal footing. In his second career along with the undoubted decline in ability, and loss of advantages like custom built tyres and unlimited testing he was well beaten by Rosberg. What Verstappen is doing is very impressive nonetheless.
So now the same the nonsense moves to this thread, as the previous thread of Schumacher didn't do this, didn't go to moon, didn't ride a camel, couldn't lay an egg? Then the usual suspects would come and say, hamilton has the biggest d***. @hollus would have some work again I guess. Apologies to be harsh, but I see this thread going exactly the same way, which happens with every thread!
Where on earth did I mention Hamilton? I merely said I find what Verstappen is doing is more impressive than what Schumacher/Senna did versus their teammates. You are clearly obsessed with defending Schumacher's legacy and denigrating Hamilton. So be it, that's your opinion. Kindly don't derail the discussion thread with your fantasies though.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

Wass85
Wass85
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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tangodjango wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:59 am
Moore77 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:43 am
tangodjango wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:27 am

To qualify the Senna/Schumacher comparisons it's worth pointing out that with modern counting rules Senna would have lost to Prost both years they were teammates and Schumacher never really faced a Hakkinen type talent in his first career as a teammate on equal footing. In his second career along with the undoubted decline in ability, and loss of advantages like custom built tyres and unlimited testing he was well beaten by Rosberg. What Verstappen is doing is very impressive nonetheless.
So now the same the nonsense moves to this thread, as the previous thread of Schumacher didn't do this, didn't go to moon, didn't ride a camel, couldn't lay an egg? Then the usual suspects would come and say, hamilton has the biggest d***. @hollus would have some work again I guess. Apologies to be harsh, but I see this thread going exactly the same way, which happens with every thread!
Where on earth did I mention Hamilton? I merely said I find what Verstappen is doing is more impressive than what Schumacher/Senna did versus their teammates. You are clearly obsessed with defending Schumacher's legacy and denigrating Hamilton. So be it, that's your opinion. Kindly don't derail the discussion thread with your fantasies though.
You have to take in to account that Prost was an amazing driver himself, saying that Verstappen started dominating a great driver in Ricciardo.

tangodjango
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:10 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:59 am
Moore77 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:43 am
So now the same the nonsense moves to this thread, as the previous thread of Schumacher didn't do this, didn't go to moon, didn't ride a camel, couldn't lay an egg? Then the usual suspects would come and say, hamilton has the biggest d***. @hollus would have some work again I guess. Apologies to be harsh, but I see this thread going exactly the same way, which happens with every thread!
Where on earth did I mention Hamilton? I merely said I find what Verstappen is doing is more impressive than what Schumacher/Senna did versus their teammates. You are clearly obsessed with defending Schumacher's legacy and denigrating Hamilton. So be it, that's your opinion. Kindly don't derail the discussion thread with your fantasies though.
You have to take in to account that Prost was an amazing driver himself, saying that Verstappen started dominating a great driver in Ricciardo.
Verstappen clearly had an edge over Ricciardo by mid 2018, however given equal reliability I believe the final points tally would be close. Prost has been the most underrated driver for the last 40 years inspite of 4 WDC's and facing the most competitive teammate lineup out of all the multiple WDC's. Senna was undoubtedly faster on average in qualifying however points are handed out on Sunday.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

Wass85
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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tangodjango wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:27 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:10 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:59 am

Where on earth did I mention Hamilton? I merely said I find what Verstappen is doing is more impressive than what Schumacher/Senna did versus their teammates. You are clearly obsessed with defending Schumacher's legacy and denigrating Hamilton. So be it, that's your opinion. Kindly don't derail the discussion thread with your fantasies though.
You have to take in to account that Prost was an amazing driver himself, saying that Verstappen started dominating a great driver in Ricciardo.
Verstappen clearly had an edge over Ricciardo by mid 2018, however given equal reliability I believe the final points tally would be close. Prost has been the most underrated driver for the last 40 years inspite of 4 WDC's and facing the most competitive teammate lineup out of all the multiple WDC's. Senna was undoubtedly faster on average in qualifying however points are handed out on Sunday.
I'm not sure on the stats but didn't Senna suffer from way more mechanical failures than Prost that helped skew the race results?

tangodjango
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:33 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:27 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:10 pm


You have to take in to account that Prost was an amazing driver himself, saying that Verstappen started dominating a great driver in Ricciardo.
Verstappen clearly had an edge over Ricciardo by mid 2018, however given equal reliability I believe the final points tally would be close. Prost has been the most underrated driver for the last 40 years inspite of 4 WDC's and facing the most competitive teammate lineup out of all the multiple WDC's. Senna was undoubtedly faster on average in qualifying however points are handed out on Sunday.
I'm not sure on the stats but didn't Senna suffer from way more mechanical failures than Prost that helped skew the race results?
That can be countered with Prost put less stress on the car and took care of it better in an era when the sport was much more mechanical and reliability issues were a bigger factor than now. He was interested in winning as slowly as possible, a skill he probably learnt from Lauda. On his day and he didn't show it that often, even when he could, he was untouchable in sheer speed, even by Senna.

Though I am not fond of Nigel Roebuck, the following piece is fairly balanced and brings out the intricacies of the Prost-Senna comparisons : https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arch ... el-roebuck
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

Wass85
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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tangodjango wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:48 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:33 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:27 pm

Verstappen clearly had an edge over Ricciardo by mid 2018, however given equal reliability I believe the final points tally would be close. Prost has been the most underrated driver for the last 40 years inspite of 4 WDC's and facing the most competitive teammate lineup out of all the multiple WDC's. Senna was undoubtedly faster on average in qualifying however points are handed out on Sunday.
I'm not sure on the stats but didn't Senna suffer from way more mechanical failures than Prost that helped skew the race results?
That can be countered with Prost put less stress on the car and took care of it better in an era when the sport was much more mechanical and reliability issues were a bigger factor than now. He was interested in winning as slowly as possible, a skill he probably learnt from Lauda. On his day and he didn't show it that often, even when he could, he was untouchable in sheer speed, even by Senna.

Though I am not fond of Nigel Roebuck, the following piece is fairly balanced and brings out the intricacies of the Prost-Senna comparisons : https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arch ... el-roebuck
Putting his failures down to driving style though is just pure guesswork.

How do you know it just wasn't a case of Senna having more bad luck?

Wass85
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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<personal stuff removed>

Speaking of Verstappen, I do wonder when we will see him challenged again by a teammate if at all?

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Yes anyone ricciardo level.

Wass85
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:31 pm
Yes anyone ricciardo level.
Tbh it was getting painful for Ricciardo hence him quitting the team.

I do think Verstappen has stepped it up another level in 2019 and 2020.

tangodjango
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:20 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:48 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:33 pm


I'm not sure on the stats but didn't Senna suffer from way more mechanical failures than Prost that helped skew the race results?
That can be countered with Prost put less stress on the car and took care of it better in an era when the sport was much more mechanical and reliability issues were a bigger factor than now. He was interested in winning as slowly as possible, a skill he probably learnt from Lauda. On his day and he didn't show it that often, even when he could, he was untouchable in sheer speed, even by Senna.

Though I am not fond of Nigel Roebuck, the following piece is fairly balanced and brings out the intricacies of the Prost-Senna comparisons : https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arch ... el-roebuck
Putting his failures down to driving style though is just pure guesswork.

How do you know it just wasn't a case of Senna having more bad luck?
That can again be countered with how do you know it just wasn't a case of Senna stressing and damaging his car and engine more than Prost? We can repeat this loop ad infinitum.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

Wass85
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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tangodjango wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:40 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:20 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:48 pm

That can be countered with Prost put less stress on the car and took care of it better in an era when the sport was much more mechanical and reliability issues were a bigger factor than now. He was interested in winning as slowly as possible, a skill he probably learnt from Lauda. On his day and he didn't show it that often, even when he could, he was untouchable in sheer speed, even by Senna.

Though I am not fond of Nigel Roebuck, the following piece is fairly balanced and brings out the intricacies of the Prost-Senna comparisons : https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arch ... el-roebuck
Putting his failures down to driving style though is just pure guesswork.

How do you know it just wasn't a case of Senna having more bad luck?
That can again be countered with how do you know it just wasn't a case of Senna stressing and damaging his car and engine more than Prost? We can repeat this loop ad infinitum.
Well exactly, it's pure guesswork on both sides and if it hasn't been brought up by anybody that's worked with the pair then he should be given the benefit of the doubt.

The facts are Senna suffered from more failures than Prost whilst they were teammates.

Wass85
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:11 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:25 pm
Nathan's reply has now rightly been deleted.

Speaking of Verstappen, I do wonder when we will see him challenged again by a teammate if at all?
Was your tag team partner who brought Lewis in to the conversation yet again. But PlatinumZealot was right, one of you always bring Hamiltons name up to spark an argument and get threads closed.
Again you are showing how childish you really are.

How is he my tag team partner, grow up will you fella.

And this thread is about Verstappen, leave the playground antics for your personal life OK buddy. 👍

tangodjango
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:44 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:40 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:20 pm


Putting his failures down to driving style though is just pure guesswork.

How do you know it just wasn't a case of Senna having more bad luck?
That can again be countered with how do you know it just wasn't a case of Senna stressing and damaging his car and engine more than Prost? We can repeat this loop ad infinitum.
Well exactly, it's pure guesswork on both sides and if it hasn't been brought up by anybody that's worked with the pair then he should be given the benefit of the doubt.

The facts are Senna suffered from more failures than Prost whilst they were teammates.
Numerous sources who worked with both of them and Honda (who used to supply Senna with the best engines) and Brembo technicians have said Prost put less stress on his car, if you don't want to accept this inspite of what seems to be your lack of knowledge about racing in the 1980's and 1990's, that's fine, I won't belabor the point

"Alain Prost, one of Ayrton Senna's biggest rivals, had a very different driving and braking style compared to Senna's. He was less aggressive towards his single seater and the braking system.
His accuracy and clean style meant he did not stress the pedal. That's why the Frenchman didn't have any particular requests for Brembo engineers. He didn't want short nor particularly sturdy pedals, neither did he ever bring the system to extreme levels."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/the- ... so/641644/
Last edited by tangodjango on Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

Fulcrum
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Re: Why Verstappen will NOT win in 2020

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Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:20 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:48 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:33 pm


I'm not sure on the stats but didn't Senna suffer from way more mechanical failures than Prost that helped skew the race results?
That can be countered with Prost put less stress on the car and took care of it better in an era when the sport was much more mechanical and reliability issues were a bigger factor than now. He was interested in winning as slowly as possible, a skill he probably learnt from Lauda. On his day and he didn't show it that often, even when he could, he was untouchable in sheer speed, even by Senna.

Though I am not fond of Nigel Roebuck, the following piece is fairly balanced and brings out the intricacies of the Prost-Senna comparisons : https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arch ... el-roebuck
Putting his failures down to driving style though is just pure guesswork.

How do you know it just wasn't a case of Senna having more bad luck?
A fairly thorough analysis is available here.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2017/09 ... liability/

Prost is the statistical outlier with respect to having a positive influence on reliability.

Alain Prost stands out as a singular example of a driver who positively influenced the reliability of his cars. In models that ignore non-driver DNFs altogether, he is therefore going to be slightly underrated due to this virtue being neglected.