High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Jolle
Jolle
222
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

Post

Big Tea wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:02 pm
Jolle wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:25 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:04 pm
:lol: How can a bike have 2 front wheels? surely its a trike? :mrgreen:

Might as well call it a car with 1 rear wheel. :lol:

i know what you mean though, seen a few of them on the road and they look very awkward to ride.
trikes (and quads) don't lean in corners.

The Yamaha Niken and Piaggio MP3 are bikes, just with an extra wheel. But... more a gimmick in the Yamaha case and a "you can ride a scooter with a car license" with the Piaggio.

Somehow as a biker it feels that people on trikes and quads think that they are safer or something... their corner speed is even lower and more dangerous because of the very high cog in corners (and lack the stability of a motorbike).
I tried the mp 500 when I had a Majesty, I swear the Maj would corner 20% better than it. It feels really unstable. The only advantage I could see is parking on a steep hill, and for around double the cost, no chance.

TBH Though, anyone who has not ridden a good modern scooter of that sort probably has complexly the wrong idea of their capability. Not in the same class as a sport bike, but not bad at all.
I can imagine. I don’t like super bikes on the road, they feel so out of place there. Also the 180+ rear tires these days make them quite hard to corner without shifting your body weight. Plus the gearing is so insane that you can never even touch their potential.

User avatar
Andres125sx
362
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:28 am
The thread title mentions road cars and [road] bikes. Hence traffic. High performance road bikes are quicker than high performance road cars in most metrics other than perhaps braking (the bike is limited by the weight transfer tipping the rider over the bars) on the road. This is especially true on narrow, twisty roads. This is because the bike can make use of more of its performance more of the time. One only has to watch bikers on the roads today to see they are able to carry much more speed, more of the time. And try following one when it overtakes a slower vehicle. It's past and back on the correct side before you've even decided to go.
Wow, I disagree almost with every word of this post, sorry Just a Fan

hypersoport bikes are quite common, while Porsches 918, McLaren P1, LaFerrari, etc. wich are their fair rivals are not, that´s the only reason you see bikes as a damn fast vehicle. If sometime you are overtaken by a P1 wich is going flat out, you´d directly call the police yourself :wink:

Hypersport bikes are at the reach of most people, while hypersport cars are not, as someone said price is key, the only parameter bikes beat cars fair and square is in the potential/price ratio, so they´re extremelly common compared to similar potential cars.

OT, yesterday I did pass a GT3 RS when I was riding my bike, I tried to provoke a bit, but he didn´t bite... coward! :lol: I know I could do nothing at all against that machine, but only hearing and seeing that beauty on a hard acceleration would have been worth it :mrgreen:

User avatar
adrianjordan
84
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:34 am
Location: West Yorkshire, England

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

Post

In traffic a push bike can be faster than a high performance road car..... 🤔😉
Bring on the EV revolution!!

User avatar
JordanMugen
70
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

Post

NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:12 am
Cars are faster than bikes,... on road, off road , straight line acceleration, top speed.
Really fast bikes are much cheaper than really fast cars however. That's the main point.

A 2019 Honda CBR1000RR Fireblade (even with a long-running & much criticised sub 200hp engine) is just as fast as a 2019 Honda NSX Hybrid in a straight line, even though the sport bike is a mere 1/22nd the price of the sportscar ($17,000 AUD vs $400,000 AUD)! :o

The top-of-the-line new 2020 Honda CBR1000RR-R SP is more expensive however ($50,000 AUD), with a new higher revving engine (extra 21hp & 1500rpm) and other improved technologies.

Aside: How come Harley Davidson doesn't build V4 and V8 bikes? With a crossplane crankshaft layout, higher cylinder count engines could still retain the lumpy sound that Harley Davidsons are famous for. Say a modular engine that could spawn a 800cc-1200cc V4 and a 1600cc-2400cc V8 (it's not like being lightweight is a priority of a Harley Davidson anyway!)... I think it would be neat, a V8 cruiser bike would be a unique proposition. :)

The Honda VFR series bike has a neat uneven sound from it's low-revving V4, but I'm sure Harley Davidson could take V4 engine sound to the next level!
Jolle wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:25 pm
Somehow as a biker it feels that people on trikes and quads think that they are safer or something...
They are bought by people who want the open air feeling but perhaps have poor balance due to a disability, medical issue or age, something like that.

User avatar
Phil
433
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

Post

How much can you get a Caterham Super7 for in australia?
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

Jolle
Jolle
222
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:53 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:12 am
Cars are faster than bikes,... on road, off road , straight line acceleration, top speed.
Really fast bikes are much cheaper than really fast cars however. That's the main point.

A 2019 Honda CBR1000RR Fireblade (even with a long-running & much criticised sub 200hp engine) is just as fast as a 2019 Honda NSX Hybrid in a straight line, even though the sport bike is a mere 1/22nd the price of the sportscar ($17,000 AUD vs $400,000 AUD)! :o

The top-of-the-line new 2020 Honda CBR1000RR-R SP is more expensive however ($50,000 AUD), with a new higher revving engine (extra 21hp & 1500rpm) and other improved technologies.

Aside: How come Harley Davidson doesn't build V4 and V8 bikes? With a crossplane crankshaft layout, higher cylinder count engines could still retain the lumpy sound that Harley Davidsons are famous for. Say a modular engine that could spawn a 800cc-1200cc V4 and a 1600cc-2400cc V8 (it's not like being lightweight is a priority of a Harley Davidson anyway!)... I think it would be neat, a V8 cruiser bike would be a unique proposition. :)

The Honda VFR series bike has a neat uneven sound from it's low-revving V4, but I'm sure Harley Davidson could take V4 engine sound to the next level!
Jolle wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:25 pm
Somehow as a biker it feels that people on trikes and quads think that they are safer or something...
They are bought by people who want the open air feeling but perhaps have poor balance due to a disability, medical issue or age, something like that.
I read somewhere indeed that in the states the HD trike is one of the best selling models for that reason. I have a feeling in Europe people just stop riding when they can’t handle a bike anymore. Too many corners.
Here you have a whole burst of young people riding quads for some reason... nothing wrong physically with them, accept a few missing brain cells

User avatar
NathanOlder
162
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:53 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:12 am
Cars are faster than bikes,... on road, off road , straight line acceleration, top speed.
Really fast bikes are much cheaper than really fast cars however. That's the main point.

A 2019 Honda CBR1000RR Fireblade (even with a long-running & much criticised sub 200hp engine) is just as fast as a 2019 Honda NSX Hybrid in a straight line, even though the sport bike is a mere 1/22nd the price of the sportscar ($17,000 AUD vs $400,000 AUD)! :o

The top-of-the-line new 2020 Honda CBR1000RR-R SP is more expensive however ($50,000 AUD), with a new higher revving engine (extra 21hp & 1500rpm) and other improved technologies.

Aside: How come Harley Davidson doesn't build V4 and V8 bikes? With a crossplane crankshaft layout, higher cylinder count engines could still retain the lumpy sound that Harley Davidsons are famous for. Say a modular engine that could spawn a 800cc-1200cc V4 and a 1600cc-2400cc V8 (it's not like being lightweight is a priority of a Harley Davidson anyway!)... I think it would be neat, a V8 cruiser bike would be a unique proposition. :)

The Honda VFR series bike has a neat uneven sound from it's low-revving V4, but I'm sure Harley Davidson could take V4 engine sound to the next level!
Jolle wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:25 pm
Somehow as a biker it feels that people on trikes and quads think that they are safer or something...
They are bought by people who want the open air feeling but perhaps have poor balance due to a disability, medical issue or age, something like that.
They may well be a lot cheaper, but price has nothing to do with the title of the thread.

Can anyone think of anything a bike is better at performance wise?
Maybe up steep hills, mountains ect.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS4.

User avatar
JordanMugen
70
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

Post

NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:32 am
Can anyone think of anything a bike is better at performance wise?
Maybe up steep hills, mountains ect.
- Lower fuel consumption (typically smaller engines)?
- Jumps, backflips & other ramp tricks seem quite a bit more possible than in a four wheeled vehicle?

As implied, a 600cc Formula SAE car which weighs 200kg+driver can generate quite a bit more lateral cornering force than the 200kg+rider 600cc motorcycle which the SAE car's engine was sourced from... Four slick tyres instead of two, roll stiffness from having a wide track, et cetera.

Particularly if the Formula SAE is fitted with aerodynamic surfacing to create downforce and increase tyre grip, which is not practical on a motorcycle:
Image

But not many four-wheeled vehicles weigh only 200kg... the FSAE car is very much the exception there! Most four-wheeled vehicles weigh a lot more than that!

Even the lightest of "road legal cars" (as per the thread title) like Caterham Sevens and other lightweight specials don't tend to have wings like the Formula SAE/Student cars, even though the 50-120kph cornering speed range which the Formula Student's wings are optimised for, is the same cornering speed range which a road car would corner within (owing to the existence of maximum 110-130 km/hr speed limits which prohibit driving and thus cornering any faster). :wtf:

Presumably, the enormous detriment to fuel consumption while cruising along the highway at 110km/hr would be untenable for owners, despite the superior cornering grip which Formula SAE type wings would provide.

Also by the nature of such Clubman vehicles, they are often taken onto closed racing circuits and driven at higher non-road-legal speeds (200+ km/hr), where smaller wings would be a more optimal compromise.... They are not only driven on the roads.

User avatar
Andres125sx
362
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

Post

NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:32 am

They may well be a lot cheaper, but price has nothing to do with the title of the thread.

Can anyone think of anything a bike is better at performance wise?
Maybe up steep hills, mountains ect.
Short corners /angles. There a bike can do a much more straight line. Take an extreme example, a very small roundabout (1-1.5m diameter) can be a straight line for a bike, but a chicane for a car, but even when it´s not a straight line (imagine a bigger roundabout 4-5m diameter) the bike can do a open "s" while the car line will be a lot more twisty with lower raidus corners

The thing is in open roads these are probably the most common corners so bikes can defend against cars quite good, wich I think is the reason this debate pops-up repeteadly from time to to time :mrgreen:

After dozens of them my conclusion is: perfomance depend on the track, but cars will be faster at a much higher percentage of them. But the perfomance you get for the money can´t be compared, bikes anihilate any car in this regard and this is a very important point for most mortals :D

User avatar
Andres125sx
362
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:26 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:32 am
Can anyone think of anything a bike is better at performance wise?
Maybe up steep hills, mountains ect.
- Lower fuel consumption (typically smaller engines)?
- Jumps, backflips & other ramp tricks seem quite a bit more possible than in a four wheeled vehicle?

As implied, a 600cc Formula SAE car which weighs 200kg+driver can generate quite a bit more lateral cornering force than the 200kg+rider 600cc motorcycle which the SAE car's engine was sourced from... Four slick tyres instead of two, roll stiffness from having a wide track, et cetera.

Particularly if the Formula SAE is fitted with aerodynamic surfacing to create downforce and increase tyre grip, which is not practical on a motorcycle:
https://clqtg10snjb14i85u49wifbv-wpengi ... t-cars.jpg

But not many four-wheeled vehicles weigh only 200kg... the FSAE car is very much the exception there! Most four-wheeled vehicles weigh a lot more than that!

Even the lightest of "road legal cars" (as per the thread title) like Caterham Sevens and other lightweight specials don't tend to have wings like the Formula SAE/Student cars, even though the 50-120kph cornering speed range which the Formula Student's wings are optimised for, is the same cornering speed range which a road car would corner within (owing to the existence of maximum 110-130 km/hr speed limits which prohibit driving and thus cornering any faster). :wtf:

Presumably, the enormous detriment to fuel consumption while cruising along the highway at 110km/hr would be untenable for owners, despite the superior cornering grip which Formula SAE type wings would provide.

Also by the nature of such Clubman vehicles, they are often taken onto closed racing circuits and driven at higher non-road-legal speeds (200+ km/hr), where smaller wings would be a more optimal compromise.... They are not only driven on the roads.
Didn´t know SAE cars are designed for that window, very interesting post thanks =D>

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
101
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

Post

Here's a classic pair of vids, car vs bike, in on-road action.

Enthusiastic driver gets his Porsche a bit sideways, back in the day.



& in a straight line power duel:



For interest's sake, I've checked the Phillip Island G.P. track lap records list, given that
Phillip Island is a fast flowing circuit, via its 'natural' track layout,(& so rare nowadays).

For showroom-stock/road-legal/homologation-production vehicles (per OP idea),
(& yes, including tyres), I've selected a couple of lap records to compare, bike vs car.

Back 20 years ago, a 250cc Aprilia* motorcycle was lapped at a class best time of 1:44.9,
while 18 months ago a Lotus Exige 350 was duly recorded at a class best time of 1:42.3.

So, a supercharged 3.5 litre Lotus beats a 20 year old 0.25 litre Aprilia by about 2.5 secs,
(& taking into account nearly 2 decades of advances in road tyre technology, as well)
that's surely not too impressive - as a mark of supposed car superiority - is it, really?


* Not a pursang 250cc G.P. racebike of course, their quickest lap recorded was a 1:32.0!
We are standing on the toes of Hobbits. So wear safety boots.

User avatar
NathanOlder
162
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

Post

Phillip Island is definitely a circuit that suits those 250's. The current Moto2 times are still slower than the 250cc lap record. Last season the Moto2 bike 765CC was slower than the 250cc record. Not impressive from current bikes in that respect.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS4.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
703
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

Post

You pick your track for your argument I guess. The Nordschliefe is the ultimate "track simulating a road" and on that, cars beat bikes.

On a fast, flowing circuit, the bike's weaknesses are hidden - no big braking or hard acceleration zones. On a track where both of those exist in abundance, a car comes in to its own.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
101
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:25 am
You pick your track for your argument I guess. The Nordschliefe is the ultimate "track simulating a road" and on that, cars beat bikes.

On a fast, flowing circuit, the bike's weaknesses are hidden - no big braking or hard acceleration zones. On a track where both of those exist in abundance, a car comes in to its own.
Care to back up those claims with validated evidence, J.a.f?

AFAIR, those 'record runs' by road cars at the Nurburgring are carefully orchestrated stunts,
done with no traffic, & on 'trick' tyre/brake combinations, unlike the bikes seen doing it.

Hard acceleration/braking also really cruel those aspects of a weighty modern hi-po roadcar,
so typically laden down with luxury/convenience features - plus electronics autonomously
running safety over-ride protocols intrusively - when various components reach heat-soak limits,
factors which current homologation-production superbikes have very needfully mastered.
We are standing on the toes of Hobbits. So wear safety boots.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
101
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

Post

NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:56 am
Phillip Island is definitely a circuit that suits those 250's. The current Moto2 times are still slower than the 250cc lap record. Last season the Moto2 bike 765CC was slower than the 250cc record. Not impressive from current bikes in that respect.
& that's not all, since US Cycleworld magazine tested the 1st edition Suzuki GSX-R 1300
way back in 1999, & on it recorded a 0-60 mph time of 2.6secs (tyre limited) via its way
to a 194 mph top end (& a 1/4 mile time in the mid nines) warranty & all, for $10 grand.

Now, if you find one in good original condition, (not so difficult, they are not a 600cc toy,
all thrashed out by kids) these big brutes can still humiliate the vast majority of new hi-po
cars (when ridden well), & yeah, it goes without dispute, that if you really want to 'go nuts' on
budget, to ++ power upgrades, then just watch those notorious 'Ghostrider' vids from Sweden..
We are standing on the toes of Hobbits. So wear safety boots.