High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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J.A.W.
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:26 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:32 am
Can anyone think of anything a bike is better at performance wise?
Maybe up steep hills, mountains ect.
- Lower fuel consumption (typically smaller engines)?
- Jumps, backflips & other ramp tricks seem quite a bit more possible than in a four wheeled vehicle?

As implied, a 600cc Formula SAE car which weighs 200kg+driver can generate quite a bit more lateral cornering force than the 200kg+rider 600cc motorcycle which the SAE car's engine was sourced from... Four slick tyres instead of two, roll stiffness from having a wide track, et cetera.

Particularly if the Formula SAE is fitted with aerodynamic surfacing to create downforce and increase tyre grip, which is not practical on a motorcycle:
https://clqtg10snjb14i85u49wifbv-wpengi ... t-cars.jpg

But not many four-wheeled vehicles weigh only 200kg... the FSAE car is very much the exception there! Most four-wheeled vehicles weigh a lot more than that!

Even the lightest of "road legal cars" (as per the thread title) like Caterham Sevens and other lightweight specials don't tend to have wings like the Formula SAE/Student cars, even though the 50-120kph cornering speed range which the Formula Student's wings are optimised for, is the same cornering speed range which a road car would corner within (owing to the existence of maximum 110-130 km/hr speed limits which prohibit driving and thus cornering any faster). :wtf:

Presumably, the enormous detriment to fuel consumption while cruising along the highway at 110km/hr would be untenable for owners, despite the superior cornering grip which Formula SAE type wings would provide.

Also by the nature of such Clubman vehicles, they are often taken onto closed racing circuits and driven at higher non-road-legal speeds (200+ km/hr), where smaller wings would be a more optimal compromise.... They are not only driven on the roads.
I'd reckon you seriously under-rate what a skilled rider can do, realistically, &
here is a 600cc bike doing carpark evolutions that a Formula SAE car just can't,
supposed tyre contact patch/aero-downforce advantage, or not.



As for those who imagine that rain/wet (sans looking for diesel spills, of course!)
seriously inhibits a skilled, confident rider very much at all, even on a fat 'porker'
bike, for fairly rapid zapping of straights/braking, & through tight corners too:

We are standing on the toes of Hobbits. So wear safety boots.

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Andres125sx
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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J.A.W. wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:47 am
JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:26 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:32 am
Can anyone think of anything a bike is better at performance wise?
Maybe up steep hills, mountains ect.
- Lower fuel consumption (typically smaller engines)?
- Jumps, backflips & other ramp tricks seem quite a bit more possible than in a four wheeled vehicle?

As implied, a 600cc Formula SAE car which weighs 200kg+driver can generate quite a bit more lateral cornering force than the 200kg+rider 600cc motorcycle which the SAE car's engine was sourced from... Four slick tyres instead of two, roll stiffness from having a wide track, et cetera.

Particularly if the Formula SAE is fitted with aerodynamic surfacing to create downforce and increase tyre grip, which is not practical on a motorcycle:
https://clqtg10snjb14i85u49wifbv-wpengi ... t-cars.jpg

But not many four-wheeled vehicles weigh only 200kg... the FSAE car is very much the exception there! Most four-wheeled vehicles weigh a lot more than that!

Even the lightest of "road legal cars" (as per the thread title) like Caterham Sevens and other lightweight specials don't tend to have wings like the Formula SAE/Student cars, even though the 50-120kph cornering speed range which the Formula Student's wings are optimised for, is the same cornering speed range which a road car would corner within (owing to the existence of maximum 110-130 km/hr speed limits which prohibit driving and thus cornering any faster). :wtf:

Presumably, the enormous detriment to fuel consumption while cruising along the highway at 110km/hr would be untenable for owners, despite the superior cornering grip which Formula SAE type wings would provide.

Also by the nature of such Clubman vehicles, they are often taken onto closed racing circuits and driven at higher non-road-legal speeds (200+ km/hr), where smaller wings would be a more optimal compromise.... They are not only driven on the roads.
I'd reckon you seriously under-rate what a skilled rider can do, realistically, &
here is a 600cc bike doing carpark evolutions that a Formula SAE car just can't,
supposed tyre contact patch/aero-downforce advantage, or not.



As for those who imagine that rain/wet (sans looking for diesel spills, of course!)
seriously inhibits a skilled, confident rider very much at all, even on a fat 'porker'
bike, for fairly rapid zapping of straights/braking, & through tight corners too:

Wait. Are you seriously claiming some parking zig-zags are the evidence bikes are faster?

And you´re the same who claimed two posts back the Norchleife records are performed with cars prepared for that taks (same as any racing vehicle) but in your opinion zig-zags at a parking slot are any evidence about bikes being faster?

OMG, fanboyism at its maximum. I´m a rider and a bike enthusiast, so don´t take it wrong, but when I see biased arguments like this I even fell embarrased #-o

J.A.W.
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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For the member who took umbrage at my post on the previous page
regarding the inherent capabilities of the monsterous GSX-R1300,
see below here:



& below, how a light 'n' peppy NSR250 2T does it...

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Jolle
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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The smaller the track, the smaller “thing” will ace it. Do that with a mini bike or a kart. And you’ll pass those honda’s front left and centre.

Same as downhill. At the Tour de France, motorbikes and cars can’t keep up with a simple pushbike.

When it comes to use real engine power and cornering speed, I hate to admit as a two wheel lover, cars are superior. Bikes are very limited with their high centre of gravity that any car that can accelerate, brake and corner above 1.2 G, will be faster.

J.A.W.
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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Jolle wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:42 am
The smaller the track, the smaller “thing” will ace it. Do that with a mini bike or a kart. And you’ll pass those honda’s front left and centre.

Same as downhill. At the Tour de France, motorbikes and cars can’t keep up with a simple pushbike.

When it comes to use real engine power and cornering speed, I hate to admit as a two wheel lover, cars are superior. Bikes are very limited with their high centre of gravity that any car that can accelerate, brake and corner above 1.2 G, will be faster.
Care to provide some evidence of those 'bold claims' Jolle?

Seems those Japanese riders in the vids posted above didn't get your
memo about being "very limited with their high centre of gravity", huh?

How many road cars "can accelerate, brake & corner above 1.2G"?

Are carts & minibikes road legal? How about Formula SAE cars?

You surely realize that the cars & bikes which accompany the Tour de France are not
there to beat the cyclists,or are you seriously suggesting the roadrace cyclists are
cornering & exiting corners downhill, at more than "1.2G",
& especially so, with a really "high centre of gravity", too?

See below for an example of how a tourist out for a 'Sunday ride' effortlessly follows,
& keeps up sweatlessly - with the hugely experienced, professionally driven BMW M3
'Ring Taxi' - at Nurburgring, (& that's not really a "smaller track", is it?)

Last edited by J.A.W. on Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jolle
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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J.A.W. wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:43 am
Jolle wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:42 am
The smaller the track, the smaller “thing” will ace it. Do that with a mini bike or a kart. And you’ll pass those honda’s front left and centre.

Same as downhill. At the Tour de France, motorbikes and cars can’t keep up with a simple pushbike.

When it comes to use real engine power and cornering speed, I hate to admit as a two wheel lover, cars are superior. Bikes are very limited with their high centre of gravity that any car that can accelerate, brake and corner above 1.2 G, will be faster.
Care to provide some evidence of those 'bold claims' Jolle?

Seems those Japanese riders in the vids posted above didn't get your
memo about being "very limited with their high centre of gravity", huh?

How many road cars "can accelerate, brake & corner above 1.2G"?

Are carts & minibikes road legal? How about Formula SAE cars?

You surely realize that the cars & bikes which accompany the Tour de France are not
there to beat the cyclists,or are you seriously suggesting the roadrace cyclists are
cornering & exiting corners downhill, at more than "1.2G",
& especially so, with a really "high centre of gravity", too?

See below for an example of how a tourist out for a 'Sunday ride' effortlessly follows,
& keeps up sweatlessly - with the hugely experienced, professionally driven BMW M3
'Ring Taxi' - at Nurburgring, (& that's not really a "smaller track", is it?)

Come on, never rode a motorcycle on slow speeds? Those guys don’t even use 10 hp, with almost zero lateral force. This style of driving (less extreme) is what you learn when you want your licence in mainland Europe, it’s impressive to watch but not that difficult to do. If you ever been in a kart on a similar track, you know it’s trying to take your head off due to the lateral force.

There are not many cars that will beat a super bike, but that’s because of price. During many track days on both, my (and others) times in high performance cars were quicker by quite a margin then bikes, especially in braking zones.

Just_a_fan
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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J.A.W. wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:42 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:25 am
You pick your track for your argument I guess. The Nordschliefe is the ultimate "track simulating a road" and on that, cars beat bikes.

On a fast, flowing circuit, the bike's weaknesses are hidden - no big braking or hard acceleration zones. On a track where both of those exist in abundance, a car comes in to its own.
Care to back up those claims with validated evidence, J.a.f?

AFAIR, those 'record runs' by road cars at the Nurburgring are carefully orchestrated stunts,
done with no traffic, & on 'trick' tyre/brake combinations, unlike the bikes seen doing it.
The track record for a bike is c.7:10 on a road legal but heavily modified bike running sticky but road legal tyres etc. Some high performance cars will do that time also on sticky but road legal tyres - actually the McLaren 720S will do that time on standard fit road tyres.

The bike will always win on bang for buck. Always, always will. No arguments. But road cars can and do go faster.

The thing about modern high performance cars is that many more people can drive them near to flat out than can be said for bikes. Taking a bike up towards its top performance takes skill and courage that just isn't needed in the cars. And when it goes awry, the car has more chance of not killing you.
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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All the apex speeds are 20-30 km/h (around 0.3-0.4g) slower than an entry level sports car. There's no way the bike is cornering at anywhere near 1G let alone 1.2G.
Last edited by Tim.Wright on Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Phil
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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J.A.W. wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:43 am
The only thing that video shows you nicely is;

- Nordschleife is a very fast track and very power dependant (hence the bike really catches up on the straights and when the car is in traffic)
- Most corners are high speed, where a bike can keep up with cars, unless the car has serious downforce
- On slower corners (<100kmh) pretty much anything on 4 wheels and good mechanical grip will be faster than (any) bike.

What's more to say?
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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NathanOlder
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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Talking of braking, Bikes are nowhere near cars. A Moto GP bike will only brake at just over 1 G. The average family car (a ford focus) will also do 1G. So Imagine how much better a sports car is , or a super car. Then look at single seaters.
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J.A.W.
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:54 pm
Talking of braking, Bikes are nowhere near cars. A Moto GP bike will only brake at just over 1 G. The average family car (a ford focus) will also do 1G. So Imagine how much better a sports car is , or a super car. Then look at single seaters.
No imagination required, the topic is about road machines, not G.P./Formula racing,
however, roadbikes were pulling ~1G in stopping tests ~1/2 a century ago, & since
the advent of disc brakes back then, certainly keep that braking level - sans fade
no matter how often it is applied - while any but super-expensive cars will have
their warning lights flashing - as their soft street pads are baking from heat-soak.

As for the other comments in previous posts above, I'll duly add, yes of course
fast road-riding requires a higher skill/awareness level than driving, & is more
risky, yet it is also more rewarding despite the risks, a factor quite evident in
riding 'within one's self' at the Nurburging naturally enough, (as per the softer
'street mode' mapping tune selected & seen on the bike's dash display in the vid).

As for Jolle, I'll also note, since he did not answer the questions I put to him,
here's another, in relevant response to the reply he did give:

Are huge 200hp 1300cc GSX-R Hayabusas, or superlight but 60hp 2T NSR 250 Hondas,
as featured in the tight track video - really listed as learner-approved bikes in Europe?
I'd have to doubt it...
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Phil
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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J.A.W. wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:56 pm

No imagination required, the topic is about road machines, not G.P./Formula racing,
however, roadbikes were pulling ~1G in stopping tests ~1/2 a century ago, & since
the advent of disc brakes back then, certainly keep that braking level - sans fade
no matter how often it is applied - while any but super-expensive cars will have
their warning lights flashing - as their soft street pads are baking from heat-soak.
Flashing lights? This is just hilarious and has zero to do with braking ability. And if you are referring to flashing braking lights... ever heard of ABS? It’s due to traction limit while under braking.

Under most road legal speeds, braking ability is limited by traction, not brake caliper size or heat dissipation.

Do the math; force/weight by contact patch and tire grip levels. Also factor in CoG and weight transfer. In the end, you still have way more contact patch and mechanical grip in a car than a bike.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Jolle
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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J.A.W. wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:56 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:54 pm
Talking of braking, Bikes are nowhere near cars. A Moto GP bike will only brake at just over 1 G. The average family car (a ford focus) will also do 1G. So Imagine how much better a sports car is , or a super car. Then look at single seaters.
No imagination required, the topic is about road machines, not G.P./Formula racing,
however, roadbikes were pulling ~1G in stopping tests ~1/2 a century ago, & since
the advent of disc brakes back then, certainly keep that braking level - sans fade
no matter how often it is applied - while any but super-expensive cars will have
their warning lights flashing - as their soft street pads are baking from heat-soak.

As for the other comments in previous posts above, I'll duly add, yes of course
fast road-riding requires a higher skill/awareness level than driving, & is more
risky, yet it is also more rewarding despite the risks, a factor quite evident in
riding 'within one's self' at the Nurburging naturally enough, (as per the softer
'street mode' mapping tune selected & seen on the bike's dash display in the vid).

As for Jolle, I'll also note, since he did not answer the questions I put to him,
here's another, in relevant response to the reply he did give:

Are huge 200hp 1300cc GSX-R Hayabusas, or superlight but 60hp 2T NSR 250 Hondas,
as featured in the tight track video - really listed as learner-approved bikes in Europe?
I'd have to doubt it...
In Europe most driving school bikes are around 600-650 cc bikes, like the Kawasaki ER-6. But above that, size doesn’t really matter as long as it’s not a cruiser. Just keep the revs low, rear brake dragging and counterbalance your weight and you can do these tricks within a few hours of training. I do a few of these every few months to keep my short work on spec. Just having a bit of feel for the bike.
I ride a 300 kg 1100 cc BMW at the moment, with full fairing and panniers. No trouble doing the short stuff like the busa in that video.

And sitting in a bike that is ¼ century old, it’s braking force is even bigger than a super bike because it’s cog is slightly lower. When driving fast, with cars around, on a bike you always have to be on the lookout because every biker (should) know that you just can’t brake as hard as an average car these days. Not only have most cars ABS, but also brake assist. On a bike you also need to load the front tire, that takes a bit of distance as well, even with ABS.

Greg Locock
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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The standard test for brake heat soak on production cars is descending a very long steep slope (it is based on some pass in the Alps) while towing a trailer loaded to GCW. Yes, you will see an increase in braking effort, for well known reasons, but the brakes still work. Another test is to run to something like maximum speed, and then full brake to a standstill, 10 times. The increase in braking effort is the criterion of excellence. So I think we'll consign that argument to the hyperbole bin, to be polite.

J.A.W.
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Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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Jolle wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:14 pm
J.A.W. wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:56 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:54 pm
Talking of braking, Bikes are nowhere near cars. A Moto GP bike will only brake at just over 1 G. The average family car (a ford focus) will also do 1G. So Imagine how much better a sports car is , or a super car. Then look at single seaters.
No imagination required, the topic is about road machines, not G.P./Formula racing,
however, roadbikes were pulling ~1G in stopping tests ~1/2 a century ago, & since
the advent of disc brakes back then, certainly keep that braking level - sans fade
no matter how often it is applied - while any but super-expensive cars will have
their warning lights flashing - as their soft street pads are baking from heat-soak.

As for the other comments in previous posts above, I'll duly add, yes of course
fast road-riding requires a higher skill/awareness level than driving, & is more
risky, yet it is also more rewarding despite the risks, a factor quite evident in
riding 'within one's self' at the Nurburging naturally enough, (as per the softer
'street mode' mapping tune selected & seen on the bike's dash display in the vid).

As for Jolle, I'll also note, since he did not answer the questions I put to him,
here's another, in relevant response to the reply he did give:

Are huge 200hp 1300cc GSX-R Hayabusas, or superlight but 60hp 2T NSR 250 Hondas,
as featured in the tight track video - really listed as learner-approved bikes in Europe?
I'd have to doubt it...
In Europe most driving school bikes are around 600-650 cc bikes, like the Kawasaki ER-6. But above that, size doesn’t really matter as long as it’s not a cruiser. Just keep the revs low, rear brake dragging and counterbalance your weight and you can do these tricks within a few hours of training. I do a few of these every few months to keep my short work on spec. Just having a bit of feel for the bike.
I ride a 300 kg 1100 cc BMW at the moment, with full fairing and panniers. No trouble doing the short stuff like the busa in that video.

And sitting in a bike that is ¼ century old, it’s braking force is even bigger than a super bike because it’s cog is slightly lower. When driving fast, with cars around, on a bike you always have to be on the lookout because every biker (should) know that you just can’t brake as hard as an average car these days. Not only have most cars ABS, but also brake assist. On a bike you also need to load the front tire, that takes a bit of distance as well, even with ABS.
By your reply, esp the bit about time/distance taken "to load the front tyre", I can see you are
not a experienced forceful braker, (& of course, ABS '2nd guessing' actually gets neophytes into strife).

Braking distances on a light bike (old or new) with the capability of holding the brake on the edge of
lock-up, with the tyre howling & the handle bars waggling a cyclic hula-dance is, at speeds of ~100km/h
or less, pretty much on par with a large fast modern bike, yet at speeds near the V-max limit of the
old/small machines, the superbike is slowing a fair bit quicker, but hey, since Brembo lists their 50 best
quickest/shortest stopping cars, lets do a fact check:

https://www.brembo.com/en/company/news/50-special

& so, even the best supercar barely beats a mundane commuter bike from 100km/h to zero:




As for what you can do on your BMW 'bagger', if its one of those high-perched, long-travel fork,
pogo-stopper's, then yeah, I get why you wisely ride it so carefully, but take it into the BMW
shop & get a test ride on their superbike, or even a big 1600/6, & find another world-view...
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