Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

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El Scorchio
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Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

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Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:04 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:53 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:30 pm
I seriously think Mercedes will stay at the top as long as they are still in the sport.

How long though does one enjoy continuous winning with no serious challenge?
It’s still obviously a continuous challenge for them though in terms of coming up with new ideas to try and stay ahead of the competition each year. It might not be a serious challenge on the circuit at times but that performance is just the reward for the team of the design and manufacturing challenge.

Who in terms of great performers in any sport gets tired of winning, even if at times they crush the opposition? Usain Bolt? Roger Federer? Tiger Woods? Phil Taylor? Alex Ferguson?
But surely it's an even bigger challenge for a team to finally defeat them?

If Mercedes master the new regs then their rivals are in for another painful few years.
Absolutely on the second point. First one is probably subjective.

e30ernest
e30ernest
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Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

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I find it fascinating that Mercedes has been able to hold onto this dominance for so long. There were closer seasons, but for the most part they had a car that was a class above the rest. This is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsports and other teams should have pretty much the best engineers and drivers as well, and yet Mercedes was able to maintain their lead for this long....

Funny enough, the Formula 1 site released their list of top 20 fastest drivers of the past 40 years:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... iH1Cz.html

It's an entertaining read and Hamilton made third and Rosberg 5th, Bottas 13th. Of the active drivers right now, Hamilton would be the best. If you'd believe their methodology and algorithms, that would mean the Mercs have had a solid driver lineup throughout its dominance. Coupled with a great technical team, that would have been very hard to beat.

I wonder now with the breathing space they have with their dominant car, if they'll be able to look more into 2022 and continue that dominance.

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raymondu999
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Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

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I don't personally like/support Hamilton, but I do believe Hamilton is,on average taking into account the possible range of handling balances/imbalances, probably the fastest driver right now. Maybe when he's in a perfectly balanced (of course with "balanced" being subject to each driver's personal wants of handling) car, someone like a Vettel or a Verstappen could probably beat him, maybe. But on average across the plethora of handling imbalances I think Hamilton probably quickest. That part I do agree with the ranking.

But Trulli and Heikki above Vettel? Lauda? Raikkonen? Hakkinen? (4 names I picked at random) come on now. The counter argument is "oh this is just "peak"/"qualifying" pace. Ok sure... then I'm pretty sure a peak/prime Kimi/Mika/Seb/Niki would be above them too. In other words... I do think the ranking is, excuse my language, horseshit.
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dans79
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Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

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raymondu999 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:32 am
But Trulli and Heikki above Vettel? Lauda? Raikkonen? Hakkinen? (4 names I picked at random) come on now. The counter argument is "oh this is just "peak"/"qualifying" pace. Ok sure... then I'm pretty sure a peak/prime Kimi/Mika/Seb/Niki would be above them too. In other words... I do think the ranking is, excuse my language, horseshit.
I have to agree here, some of the names appearing in that list make no sense.
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e30ernest
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Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

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dans79 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:45 am
raymondu999 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:32 am
But Trulli and Heikki above Vettel? Lauda? Raikkonen? Hakkinen? (4 names I picked at random) come on now. The counter argument is "oh this is just "peak"/"qualifying" pace. Ok sure... then I'm pretty sure a peak/prime Kimi/Mika/Seb/Niki would be above them too. In other words... I do think the ranking is, excuse my language, horseshit.
I have to agree here, some of the names appearing in that list make no sense.
Yeah I found it really intriguing especially since a lot of the drivers there come from the modern era. AWS hasn't been getting a positive image from the fans (all those weird useless graphics, etc). I'd love to know a bit more on how they got the algorithm though. Could have possibly have less data points for past drivers.

dans79
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Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

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e30ernest wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:02 am
dans79 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:45 am
raymondu999 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:32 am
But Trulli and Heikki above Vettel? Lauda? Raikkonen? Hakkinen? (4 names I picked at random) come on now. The counter argument is "oh this is just "peak"/"qualifying" pace. Ok sure... then I'm pretty sure a peak/prime Kimi/Mika/Seb/Niki would be above them too. In other words... I do think the ranking is, excuse my language, horseshit.
I have to agree here, some of the names appearing in that list make no sense.
Yeah I found it really intriguing especially since a lot of the drivers there come from the modern era. AWS hasn't been getting a positive image from the fans (all those weird useless graphics, etc). I'd love to know a bit more on how they got the algorithm though. Could have possibly have less data points for past drivers.
the bizarre one for me is Trulli!
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e30ernest
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Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

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dans79 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:00 am
e30ernest wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:02 am
dans79 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:45 am


I have to agree here, some of the names appearing in that list make no sense.
Yeah I found it really intriguing especially since a lot of the drivers there come from the modern era. AWS hasn't been getting a positive image from the fans (all those weird useless graphics, etc). I'd love to know a bit more on how they got the algorithm though. Could have possibly have less data points for past drivers.
the bizarre one for me is Trulli!
They explain Kov, but I don't know why Trulli. :D I'm surprised Prost ranked so low too.

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raymondu999
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Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

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At the very surface, Trulli was an awesome qualifier way back. Remember Trulli trains? Prost was never an amazing qualifier but he was an amazing race-manager, I thought.
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Wass85
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Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

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They have basically made that list off H2H results with each other.

Trulli makes that list because he beat every teammate he had in qualifying apart from HK.

HK is obviously on the list because he beat Trulli and did OK against LH.

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henry
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Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

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raymondu999 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:22 am
At the very surface, Trulli was an awesome qualifier way back. Remember Trulli trains? Prost was never an amazing qualifier but he was an amazing race-manager, I thought.
Indeed. If my memory serves me right, in their time together Trulli outqualified Alonso. Very fast over one lap but much slower over a race distance. He always triggers discontent between those that consult numbers and those who consult other things.
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e30ernest
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Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

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I had forgotten much about Trulli. Thanks for refreshing my memory. :D

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Moore77
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Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

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raymondu999 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:32 am
I don't personally like/support Hamilton, but I do believe Hamilton is,on average taking into account the possible range of handling balances/imbalances, probably the fastest driver right now. Maybe when he's in a perfectly balanced (of course with "balanced" being subject to each driver's personal wants of handling) car, someone like a Vettel or a Verstappen could probably beat him, maybe. But on average across the plethora of handling imbalances I think Hamilton probably quickest. That part I do agree with the ranking.

But Trulli and Heikki above Vettel? Lauda? Raikkonen? Hakkinen? (4 names I picked at random) come on now. The counter argument is "oh this is just "peak"/"qualifying" pace. Ok sure... then I'm pretty sure a peak/prime Kimi/Mika/Seb/Niki would be above them too. In other words... I do think the ranking is, excuse my language, horseshit.
That is precisely why, statistical analysis across a wide spectrum of generations is pointless. Regardless of many normalization parameters you enter and modulate, they still don't serve the purpose.

In my opinion, Montoya was one of the brisk drivers, belonging to the Alonso and Kimi level. Importantly, where is Hakkinen! It's funny, neither of the two have a place! That tells me how silly these exercises are.
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Wass85
Wass85
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Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

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What's even more funnier is that Prost isn't even on that list.

Just because he couldn't compete with Senna over one lap (nobody could apart from Hakkinen) doesn't mean he wasn't a great qualifier, he has more front row starts than Schumacher!

e30ernest
e30ernest
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Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

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So going back to Hakkinen, maybe he wasn't scored so highly because of his qualifying performance against Johnny Herbert, and while he won in tally against Coulthard, they were close towards the end (10 vs 7 and 9 vs 8 in their last 2 years together)?

https://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-drivers/mika-hakkinen/

JPM was quick but he was also beaten by Kimmi and his qualifying vs Ralph Schumacher was also very close (sometimes losing over the season):

https://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-drivers/j ... o-montoya/
Wass85 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:39 am
What's even more funnier is that Prost isn't even on that list.

Just because he couldn't compete with Senna over one lap (nobody could apart from Hakkinen) doesn't mean he wasn't a great qualifier, he has more front row starts than Schumacher!
Prost is #20.
Last edited by e30ernest on Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

Wass85
Wass85
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Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

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e30ernest wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:43 am
So going back to Hakkinen, maybe he wasn't scored so highly because of his qualifying performance against Johnny Herbert, and while he won in tally against Coulthard, (10 vs 7 and 9 vs 8 in their last 2 years together)?

https://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-drivers/mika-hakkinen/

JPM was quick but he was also beaten by Kimmi and his qualifying vs Ralph Schumacher was also very close (sometimes losing over the season):

https://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-drivers/j ... o-montoya/
Wass85 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:39 am
What's even more funnier is that Prost isn't even on that list.

Just because he couldn't compete with Senna over one lap (nobody could apart from Hakkinen) doesn't mean he wasn't a great qualifier, he has more front row starts than Schumacher!
Prost is #20.
Wasn't Hakkinen a clear number two to Herbert though?

Prost is at #20? What a joke!