Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
User avatar
El Scorchio
40
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

Don’t forget this list is FASTEST rather than BEST.

Not saying what they’ve done is perfect by any means but there is a distinction there that goes some way to explaining the slightly strange list they’ve come up with.

User avatar
nzjrs
108
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:21 am
Location: Austria

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:07 am
Don’t forget this list is FASTEST rather than BEST.

Not saying what they’ve done is perfect by any means but there is a distinction there that goes some way to explaining the slightly strange list they’ve come up with.
Yeah, I think it is a bit of a nothing burger to be honest.

They talked about the methodology a bit, and (I'd bet) to make normalization and comparison tractable they use only qualification data, then they asked around and found a quote to support that 'qualification is the true measure of driver pace'. Click. Publish. Now we have things for people to argue about.

User avatar
NathanOlder
162
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

--- list. not even worth talking about on a technical forum. This list belongs on Facebook and Instagram
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS4.

basti313
basti313
55
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:19 pm
basti313 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:02 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:47 pm
If Mercedes are still dominant in 2022, there will be no one to blame but the teams themselves. It's an entirely new formula. No excuses.
It will be the same engine.
So what? Why aren't all of the top spots held by Mercedes-engined teams if the PU is the be-all and end-all of the Formula? Really, it's getting boring as the same old excuse being offered.
No that is not an excuse. It is blunt visible that the engine has more power and is more efficient. And it is borderline stupid to take Williams and Force India as an example. Williams has an aero concept that reminds me of Manor or Caterham. Force India is the team that went bankrupt and is now Nr3 with a bad copy.... Both are no example at all.

Just look at the starting point of the Hybrid engine:
- Merc had decent to good aero. Because of the engine they were miles ahead. Even Williams was quite good without an aero concept. RedBull surely had a good aero in 2014, but had to screw the concept in order to not cook the engine and needed to strip drag wherever possible.
- In the last years Merc switched to a super draggy concept that clearly put them ahead in aero to others leaning to less draggy high rake concepts. Because they afford it to put 100 edges on the bargeboard without being 20km/h slower.

Of course they have a huge benefit in the new rules as well if they simply can work with much more drag.

User avatar
El Scorchio
40
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

basti313 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:27 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:19 pm
basti313 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:02 pm

It will be the same engine.
So what? Why aren't all of the top spots held by Mercedes-engined teams if the PU is the be-all and end-all of the Formula? Really, it's getting boring as the same old excuse being offered.
No that is not an excuse. It is blunt visible that the engine has more power and is more efficient. And it is borderline stupid to take Williams and Force India as an example. Williams has an aero concept that reminds me of Manor or Caterham. Force India is the team that went bankrupt and is now Nr3 with a bad copy.... Both are no example at all.

Just look at the starting point of the Hybrid engine:
- Merc had decent to good aero. Because of the engine they were miles ahead. Even Williams was quite good without an aero concept. RedBull surely had a good aero in 2014, but had to screw the concept in order to not cook the engine and needed to strip drag wherever possible.
- In the last years Merc switched to a super draggy concept that clearly put them ahead in aero to others leaning to less draggy high rake concepts. Because they afford it to put 100 edges on the bargeboard without being 20km/h slower.

Of course they have a huge benefit in the new rules as well if they simply can work with much more drag.
If they've invested the time and resources into developing the best engine, then why shouldn't they be able to benefit from it, regardless of new aero rules?

basti313
basti313
55
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

El Scorchio wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:26 pm
basti313 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:27 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:19 pm

So what? Why aren't all of the top spots held by Mercedes-engined teams if the PU is the be-all and end-all of the Formula? Really, it's getting boring as the same old excuse being offered.
No that is not an excuse. It is blunt visible that the engine has more power and is more efficient. And it is borderline stupid to take Williams and Force India as an example. Williams has an aero concept that reminds me of Manor or Caterham. Force India is the team that went bankrupt and is now Nr3 with a bad copy.... Both are no example at all.

Just look at the starting point of the Hybrid engine:
- Merc had decent to good aero. Because of the engine they were miles ahead. Even Williams was quite good without an aero concept. RedBull surely had a good aero in 2014, but had to screw the concept in order to not cook the engine and needed to strip drag wherever possible.
- In the last years Merc switched to a super draggy concept that clearly put them ahead in aero to others leaning to less draggy high rake concepts. Because they afford it to put 100 edges on the bargeboard without being 20km/h slower.

Of course they have a huge benefit in the new rules as well if they simply can work with much more drag.
If they've invested the time and resources into developing the best engine, then why shouldn't they be able to benefit from it, regardless of new aero rules?
Nothing wrong with this. But with the current rules the others have no chance to catch up. We will have tokens and a basically fixed design. So from 2014 to 2021 they had a good profit from the good development and the others did not overcome this. Nothing wrong with this.
After 2020 the engine advantage will be fixed by the rules no matter what the others may do...I think this is not ok.

User avatar
El Scorchio
40
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

basti313 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:46 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:26 pm
basti313 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:27 am

No that is not an excuse. It is blunt visible that the engine has more power and is more efficient. And it is borderline stupid to take Williams and Force India as an example. Williams has an aero concept that reminds me of Manor or Caterham. Force India is the team that went bankrupt and is now Nr3 with a bad copy.... Both are no example at all.

Just look at the starting point of the Hybrid engine:
- Merc had decent to good aero. Because of the engine they were miles ahead. Even Williams was quite good without an aero concept. RedBull surely had a good aero in 2014, but had to screw the concept in order to not cook the engine and needed to strip drag wherever possible.
- In the last years Merc switched to a super draggy concept that clearly put them ahead in aero to others leaning to less draggy high rake concepts. Because they afford it to put 100 edges on the bargeboard without being 20km/h slower.

Of course they have a huge benefit in the new rules as well if they simply can work with much more drag.
If they've invested the time and resources into developing the best engine, then why shouldn't they be able to benefit from it, regardless of new aero rules?
Nothing wrong with this. But with the current rules the others have no chance to catch up. We will have tokens and a basically fixed design. So from 2014 to 2021 they had a good profit from the good development and the others did not overcome this. Nothing wrong with this.
After 2020 the engine advantage will be fixed by the rules no matter what the others may do...I think this is not ok.
I definitely see both sides of the argument. It can't be a situation where it's impossible to catch up, but they have to think of some sort of a way where without preventing Mercedes to carry on their progress, (because IMO that's so against the pioneering spirit of the sport) the other teams can close the gap, which would be healthy. Very tricky to do, though without being too heavy handed.

I think the new directive coming in maybe is meant to be part of that. At least if it mixes qualifying up a little bit, then it's not always a given the Mercedes will just be able to drive straight to the front in every race as we have seen on several occasions. This is assuming it works, of course and doesn't just have the opposite effect. Of course I'm very cynical of the timing, given the potential relative performance gain for Ferrari, at a time it would really suit them most, rather than any other time in the last six years when they were right up there.

basti313
basti313
55
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

El Scorchio wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:54 pm

I definitely see both sides of the argument. It can't be a situation where it's impossible to catch up, but they have to think of some sort of a way where without preventing Mercedes to carry on their progress, (because IMO that's so against the pioneering spirit of the sport) the other teams can close the gap, which would be healthy. Very tricky to do, though without being too heavy handed.
True. I do not see how you can really allow for closing the gap without having the full development program running. A clear point and a must is that the costs of the engine development go down. This is the reason behind the coming freeze.
So there will be only restrictions and TDs left to bring the engines a bit more together.
El Scorchio wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:54 pm
I think the new directive coming in maybe is meant to be part of that. At least if it mixes qualifying up a little bit, then it's not always a given the Mercedes will just be able to drive straight to the front in every race as we have seen on several occasions. This is assuming it works, of course and doesn't just have the opposite effect. Of course I'm very cynical of the timing, given the potential relative performance gain for Ferrari, at a time it would really suit them most, rather than any other time in the last six years when they were right up there.
I think that it does not even play a role in which direction it goes. At the moment the FIA does not even have a good measure to judge the engines in terms of power due to the constant switch flipping. As seen in the last race...if you would base your assumption on how far the engines are from each other on Q power then you need to ask the question if they run in Strat 2, 3 or 4....if you benchmark they turn it down like last season...
So getting rid of these modes is at least a chance to make a fair judgement and then think about what to do in a fixed engine formula.

User avatar
Andres125sx
362
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

basti313 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:46 pm

Nothing wrong with this. But with the current rules the others have no chance to catch up. We will have tokens and a basically fixed design. So from 2014 to 2021 they had a good profit from the good development and the others did not overcome this. Nothing wrong with this.
I´d agree if that was the usual procedure, but when has FIA allowed 7 years rule stability with any other dominance period?

They didn´t with Ferrari dominance (schumacher), they didn´t with RBR dominance (Vettel), they didn´t with Brawn dominance, not even with Renault in 05-06 even when they didn´t have a dominant car. They usually change the ruleset when any team has an edge for several seasons, but not with Mercedes now, they´ve allowed the team to dominate for double the seasons they usually do.

In F1 titles depends on politics more than in any other sport, this is the part I don´t like about F1

User avatar
Moore77
25
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:03 am

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

Andres125sx wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:08 am
basti313 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:46 pm

Nothing wrong with this. But with the current rules the others have no chance to catch up. We will have tokens and a basically fixed design. So from 2014 to 2021 they had a good profit from the good development and the others did not overcome this. Nothing wrong with this.
I´d agree if that was the usual procedure, but when has FIA allowed 7 years rule stability with any other dominance period?

They didn´t with Ferrari dominance (schumacher), they didn´t with RBR dominance (Vettel), they didn´t with Brawn dominance, not even with Renault in 05-06 even when they didn´t have a dominant car. They usually change the ruleset when any team has an edge for several seasons, but not with Mercedes now, they´ve allowed the team to dominate for double the seasons they usually do.

In F1 titles depends on politics more than in any other sport, this is the part I don´t like about F1
V8s ran for 8 years, with development frozen from 2009 onwards but with limited allowance on reliability purpose. It's another story that, the RBR dominance happened in the second half of that period. While the engine regulations stayed same from 2014 onwards, consistent development opportunities were allowed for all manufacturers until this year, which was never done before for such a long duration, just to allow the competition to catch up. They even scrapped the token based development to allow everyone a free hand in development.There were many technical directives restricting the grey areas of engine.

While engine regulations remained the same, they changed the chassis regulations like never before for 2017 because of pressure from McLaren and Red Bull. Once again the front wing rules were changed in 2019 that had similarly big effect on the performance of the cars. If one team consistently nails the change of regulations, there is hardly a reason for changing the regulations. Changing regulations, only increases the performance gulf between teams and is a deterrent to bunching the field. Is there anyone who bets that, if the regulations are changed, Mercedes will not nail it once again, given their current strength?
Gangdom: Pom, Tom, Loverboy, Boomer.

basti313
basti313
55
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

Yes, I totally agree. Your examples with the reg changes show one thing: It is not the aero, it is the engine.

User avatar
Andres125sx
362
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

Moore77 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:26 am
While the engine regulations stayed same from 2014 onwards, consistent development opportunities were allowed for all manufacturers until this year, which was never done before for such a long duration, just to allow the competition to catch up.
I see it completely different. Traditionally when a team dominates that domination is not finished when some other team catch up, but when FIA bans whatever solution which is providing that advantage. Brawn double diffusers, RBR blown diffusers, Ferrari free 24/7 testing, Renault mass dumper, Williams active suspensions... that's how FIA finish domination periods, banning, not waiting till someone catch up

Not this time tough, for whatever reason they've allowed Mercedes domination for 8 consecutive seasons, something which never happened before

But do you think with Brabam fan car, Williams active car or RBR with blown diffusers (just some examples) their dominance period would have been any shorter if FIA would not change the rules / ban those solutions?

Dominance periods do not depend only on team work, many teams have done a similar or even better job than Mercedes currently, only difference is for how long FIA allowed that team to enjoy the fruits of their great job, sometimes they stop it instantly, sometimes they allow it for the rest of the season, sometimes for some seasons.... and this time for 8 seasons :o

e30ernest
e30ernest
20
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:47 am

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

Andres125sx wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:39 am
Moore77 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:26 am
While the engine regulations stayed same from 2014 onwards, consistent development opportunities were allowed for all manufacturers until this year, which was never done before for such a long duration, just to allow the competition to catch up.
I see it completely different. Traditionally when a team dominates that domination is not finished when some other team catch up, but when FIA bans whatever solution which is providing that advantage. Brawn double diffusers, RBR blown diffusers, Ferrari free 24/7 testing, Renault mass dumper, Williams active suspensions... that's how FIA finish domination periods, banning, not waiting till someone catch up

Not this time tough, for whatever reason they've allowed Mercedes domination for 8 consecutive seasons, something which never happened before

But do you think with Brabam fan car, Williams active car or RBR with blown diffusers (just some examples) their dominance period would have been any shorter if FIA would not change the rules / ban those solutions?

Dominance periods do not depend only on team work, many teams have done a similar or even better job than Mercedes currently, only difference is for how long FIA allowed that team to enjoy the fruits of their great job, sometimes they stop it instantly, sometimes they allow it for the rest of the season, sometimes for some seasons.... and this time for 8 seasons :o
They did try to ban some of Merc's tricks too such as its various implementations of FRIC, oil burning, DAS. IMO the change to limit outwash wings should have hurt Merc the most too since they were the pioneers of it in the modern era (Brawn's domination wasn't just from its DD).

The difference between your examples above and what we're seeing now is that the Mercedes team have been more agile in their reactions and able to adapt faster.

Even if the FIA tried to ban anything that is giving the Mercs a huge advantage, what would it be? There is no big thing that is giving the Mercedes that advantage.

63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
373
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

Andres125sx wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:39 am
Moore77 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:26 am
While the engine regulations stayed same from 2014 onwards, consistent development opportunities were allowed for all manufacturers until this year, which was never done before for such a long duration, just to allow the competition to catch up.
I see it completely different. Traditionally when a team dominates that domination is not finished when some other team catch up, but when FIA bans whatever solution which is providing that advantage. Brawn double diffusers, RBR blown diffusers, Ferrari free 24/7 testing, Renault mass dumper, Williams active suspensions... that's how FIA finish domination periods, banning, not waiting till someone catch up

Not this time tough, for whatever reason they've allowed Mercedes domination for 8 consecutive seasons, something which never happened before

But do you think with Brabam fan car, Williams active car or RBR with blown diffusers (just some examples) their dominance period would have been any shorter if FIA would not change the rules / ban those solutions?

Dominance periods do not depend only on team work, many teams have done a similar or even better job than Mercedes currently, only difference is for how long FIA allowed that team to enjoy the fruits of their great job, sometimes they stop it instantly, sometimes they allow it for the rest of the season, sometimes for some seasons.... and this time for 8 seasons :o
Maybe because there is no single feature of the car that they can ban ?
In all the cases you mention, each of those elements allowed exceptional performance gains. What can the FIA do to stop a team that just does a better job everywhere ?

63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
373
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

Post

e30ernest wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:01 am

They did try to ban some of Merc's tricks too such as its various implementations of FRIC, oil burning, DAS. IMO the change to limit outwash wings should have hurt Merc the most too since they were the pioneers of it in the modern era (Brawn's domination wasn't just from its DD).

The difference between your examples above and what we're seeing now is that the Mercedes team have been more agile in their reactions and able to adapt faster.

Even if the FIA tried to ban anything that is giving the Mercs a huge advantage, what would it be? There is no big thing that is giving the Mercedes that advantage.
Beat me to it :)