Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

[Andres125sx]

No, it´s not Mercedes, it´s FIA keeping same rules instead of doing a change as they usually do.

[Just_a_fan]

No, it´s not Mercedes, it´s FIA keeping same rules instead of doing a change as they usually do.

Large rule changes cost the teams lots of money.

The front wing change was intended to clip Mercedes's wings (excuse the pun) because they worked the front wing incredibly hard to define the flow over the car. They didn't want the current wing rules. But they have been able to design a car that works well under the current rules. That takes a lot of resource.

[Bill]

Mercedes voted in favor of the wing setup so to say they didn't want it is just not true

[lh13]

1. Mercedes don't set the rules.
1a. Ferrari have a veto and if they thought the rules were being set for Mercedes, they'd use that veto.

2. The fact that Bottas won last week, that Mercedes didn't order him to let Hamilton through, shows there is no defined #1 / #2 in the team. If Hamilton had #1 status, there would have been scenes like Schumacher and Alonso benefitting from the team ordering their team mate to get out of the way.

Bold part is incorrect, and has no relevance to this topic of this thread.

[nzjrs]

I would speculate that the reason Ferarri didn't fight/veto the budget cap changes as hard as Mercedes did was because such a change is the last untested 'rule change' that could upset the field.

F1 needs more diversity (of WCC winners)

[Just_a_fan]

1. Mercedes don't set the rules.
1a. Ferrari have a veto and if they thought the rules were being set for Mercedes, they'd use that veto.

2. The fact that Bottas won last week, that Mercedes didn't order him to let Hamilton through, shows there is no defined #1 / #2 in the team. If Hamilton had #1 status, there would have been scenes like Schumacher and Alonso benefitting from the team ordering their team mate to get out of the way.

Bold part is incorrect, and has no relevance to this topic of this thread.

The driver status was raised by another poster and this is a reply to that. And please do show us the proof that there is a defined number 1 and number 2 driver role / contract. Lots have wanted to show this.

[Just_a_fan]

Mercedes voted in favor of the wing setup so to say they didn't want it is just not true

Toto said this about why they voted for it:

“First of all we voted in favour because we didn’t want to be dysfunctional,” he said. “The FIA and Liberty put a lot of effort into designing those rules, and where Mercedes stands, we don’t want to be unhelpful. And that’s why we voted in favour.

“We felt it would shake up the grid a little bit, which in itself provides an opportunity and a risk, but we like the opportunity. And then obviously is trying to compensate the loss of downforce as much as possible, and I’m quite curious to see when we hit the tracks by how much we are down or whether we are down.”

Red Bull think it was just to spite them. But that's Red Bull under Marko and Horner for you.

In an interview, I think it was Allison, Mercedes stated that the changes didn't help them at all because their aero philosophy to date had been to really work the airflow with the front wing to create outwash - perhaps to a greater extend than any other team (lower rake design compared to other higher rake designs).

[basti313]

No, it´s not Mercedes, it´s FIA keeping same rules instead of doing a change as they usually do.

I think Pirelli is the bigger problem.
Merc has a big pro on engine side, but these rules they can not just change. They also have the big knowledge of these Pirelli tires (tire test, Schumacher driving races with strange configurations just for tire testing) and all tire changes in the last years went clearly into favor of Mercedes.
In my point of view the change to different tires is more interesting than anything else on the tire change.

[lh13]

1. Mercedes don't set the rules.
1a. Ferrari have a veto and if they thought the rules were being set for Mercedes, they'd use that veto.

2. The fact that Bottas won last week, that Mercedes didn't order him to let Hamilton through, shows there is no defined #1 / #2 in the team. If Hamilton had #1 status, there would have been scenes like Schumacher and Alonso benefitting from the team ordering their team mate to get out of the way.

Bold part is incorrect, and has no relevance to this topic of this thread.

The driver status was raised by another poster and this is a reply to that. And please do show us the proof that there is a defined number 1 and number 2 driver role / contract. Lots have wanted to show this.

Not the place to discuss this. You took the bait from the other poster. Happy to take this elsewhere, or this thread is going to go the usual 'Hamilton' direction.

[Just_a_fan]

They also have the big knowledge of these Pirelli tires (tire test, Schumacher driving races with strange configurations just for tire testing) and all tire changes in the last years went clearly into favor of Mercedes.

As the tyres are very different to those when Schuie was driving for Mercedes, I doubt there's any useful tyre data there.

The fact that Mercedes struggled with the rear tyres for a couple of years 2 years ago, suggests that they don't have a monopoly on tyre information. They've worked hard to improve the car to deal with that issue and that was done with exactly the same availability to testing etc. as every other team.

Seems to me that Mercedes's dominance is as much down to being a team that reacts intelligently to problems and doesn't throw people under the bus for mistakes. That is really important because then people don't live in fear of mistakes. Where people fear that a mistake will affect them personally, you get paralysis - people won't try things in case they go wrong. That limits your ability to change.

So one might say that Mercedes's dominance is as much a result of Toto's (and Niki's) management style and structure as any technical dominance. There are times when the team has failed, bad decisions, car issues etc., but the team has rallied round and pulled together. "Win as a team, lose as a team" where others look for scapegoats.

[Jolle]

No, it´s not Mercedes, it´s FIA keeping same rules instead of doing a change as they usually do.

I think Pirelli is the bigger problem.
Merc has a big pro on engine side, but these rules they can not just change. They also have the big knowledge of these Pirelli tires (tire test, Schumacher driving races with strange configurations just for tire testing) and all tire changes in the last years went clearly into favor of Mercedes.
In my point of view the change to different tires is more interesting than anything else on the tire change.

Some people forget that during the whole tire test saga, it was RedBull that walked away with 9 straight wins after they changed the carcass.

During that period it was pretty obvious that RedBull, Ferrari and McLaren were still full speed developing their 2013 cars, while Mercedes just shifted everything on 2014. The W04 saw almost no development while RedBull was still updating their exhaust system race last by race.

[El Scorchio]

It makes zero sense to anyone for Pirelli to make tyre changes to help Mercedes. Mercedes have just adapted better to the new tyres each time. It's a shame to smell a conspiracy rather than think maybe they've just done the best job.

[holeindalip]

No, it´s not Mercedes, it´s FIA keeping same rules instead of doing a change as they usually do.

I think Pirelli is the bigger problem.
Merc has a big pro on engine side, but these rules they can not just change. They also have the big knowledge of these Pirelli tires (tire test, Schumacher driving races with strange configurations just for tire testing) and all tire changes in the last years went clearly into favor of Mercedes.
In my point of view the change to different tires is more interesting than anything else on the tire change.

Some people forget that during the whole tire test saga, it was RedBull that walked away with 9 straight wins after they changed the carcass.

During that period it was pretty obvious that RedBull, Ferrari and McLaren were still full speed developing their 2013 cars, while Mercedes just shifted everything on 2014. The W04 saw almost no development while RedBull was still updating their exhaust system race last by race.

I think they meant the thinner tread depth from a couple of years ago the mercs said would blister, which got changed to a thinner tread depth and it was a whole conspiracy while vettel even admitted Ferrari would have been worse off with the thicker tread depth.

The mercs in 2013 did bring substantial updates to their car, I believe in Korea the brought a brand new profiled nose cone a d in Italy I read that one of the mechanics told Hamilton to be careful because he just screwed the most beautiful floor he’s ever seen to the bottom of the car......

[nzjrs]

It makes zero sense to anyone for Pirelli to make tyre changes to help Mercedes. Mercedes have just adapted better to the new tyres each time. It's a shame to smell a conspiracy rather than think maybe they've just done the best job.

I think most sane people acknowledge they have done the best Job.

I would argue that the DNA of F1 is as much about these field leveling regulation changes and the effect on the engineering and racing as it is about anything else.

There is a discussion to be had about how the dominance here is largely unprecedented, and if historically the structure of F1 (it's regular rule changes) does no longer shake up the field every few years, then maybe that needs to be looked at.

[alexx_88]

The biggest problem that the world has with Mercedes is that they have an excellent organization with the absolute perfect mindset. As long as they continue to be well funded, they'll continue to come out at the top or near the top through any rule change, no matter how extreme, as long as there's no cost cap.

What the FIA are doing with the new rules is essentially offering even lower-budget teams the chance to compete either by having a great driver or by being a good organization, built on the right principles. Until now, only Ferrari had the means to compete with Mercedes from an even playing field in terms of resources, and the less said about Ferrari's organization and culture, the better. Only Red Bull has a similarly strong internal organization, but the fact that they outsource PU development is still a disadvantage.