Are Mercedes creating the longest period of dominance on record?

[Andres125sx]

No, it´s not Mercedes, it´s FIA keeping same rules instead of doing a change as they usually do.

Large rule changes cost the teams lots of money.

The front wing change was intended to clip Mercedes's wings (excuse the pun) because they worked the front wing incredibly hard to define the flow over the car. They didn't want the current wing rules. But they have been able to design a car that works well under the current rules. That takes a lot of resource.

I never said those rule changes are intended to favour anyone, I'm just pointing a fact.

But yes, they are intended to favour someone, their selves, FIA.

No competition will survive a long dominant period, it doesn't matter if it's Ferrari, RBR, Mercedes or any other, it's a matter of keeping interest of viewers as they (we) loose interest if we know who will win beforehand for several consecutive seasons

[marvin78]

Oh there are some users on this very forum that might turn their back on F1 if said team/driver does not win any more. But you are right. It's not good for the popularity of the sport.

[Just_a_fan]

Until now, only Ferrari had the means to compete with Mercedes from an even playing field in terms of resources, and the less said about Ferrari's organization and culture, the better. Only Red Bull has a similarly strong internal organization, but the fact that they outsource PU development is still a disadvantage.

RedBull have a similar amount of money to Mercedes. I think RedBull's decision to be an engine buyer rather than supplier has hampered them in a series where the PU is as important as the aero - aero being RedBull's strong point, at least historically. Indeed, I do wonder if RedBull's problems are partly down to their belief that they are the aero kings and if only the PUs were equal then they'd win.

The fact that Mercedes were able to control the race this week suggests that their car is not just all about the PU and that their aero is as good as RedBull's.

[nzjrs]

Until now, only Ferrari had the means to compete with Mercedes from an even playing field in terms of resources, and the less said about Ferrari's organization and culture, the better. Only Red Bull has a similarly strong internal organization, but the fact that they outsource PU development is still a disadvantage.

RedBull have a similar amount of money to Mercedes. I think RedBull's decision to be an engine buyer rather than supplier has hampered them in a series where the PU is as important as the aero - aero being RedBull's strong point, at least historically. Indeed, I do wonder if RedBull's problems are partly down to their belief that they are the aero kings and if only the PUs were equal then they'd win.

The fact that Mercedes were able to control the race this week suggests that their car is not just all about the PU and that their aero is as good as RedBull's.

I think its too easily forgotten the role of suspension in this formula. The points / tracks where RB looked strongest over the last years have often been those that demand a lot of the suspension. The view that RB was a stable monster and could attack curbs harder than the rest of the field has been less true over the last years, similarly that they were mega in low speed corners.

I think the Mercedes suspension people are underrated.

[Jolle]

Until now, only Ferrari had the means to compete with Mercedes from an even playing field in terms of resources, and the less said about Ferrari's organization and culture, the better. Only Red Bull has a similarly strong internal organization, but the fact that they outsource PU development is still a disadvantage.

RedBull have a similar amount of money to Mercedes. I think RedBull's decision to be an engine buyer rather than supplier has hampered them in a series where the PU is as important as the aero - aero being RedBull's strong point, at least historically. Indeed, I do wonder if RedBull's problems are partly down to their belief that they are the aero kings and if only the PUs were equal then they'd win.

The fact that Mercedes were able to control the race this week suggests that their car is not just all about the PU and that their aero is as good as RedBull's.

I think its too easily forgotten the role of suspension in this formula. The points / tracks where RB looked strongest over the last years have often been those that demand a lot of the suspension. The view that RB was a stable monster and could attack curbs harder than the rest of the field has been less true over the last years, similarly that they were mega in low speed corners.

I think the Mercedes suspension people are underrated.

It might be one of the strongest points of the Mercedes team, not that they have a very good rear suspension, but how they connect all the dots. If you look at RedBull and McLaren until recently, all of the design is based on best aero performance, everything else has to compromise. Thats why the Redbulls and McLarens used to overheat. On the back suspension, Mercedes didn't compromise. Their pull rod is as short as possible without any offset, while all the other teams opted for a better aero choice having extreme angles that doesn't help rear wheel low speed grip.

This team work, finding the best solution in any area and not just one and compromise the rest is done in everywhere. It was the basis for the split turbo for instance.

[alexx_88]

They do, but I think the integration that Mercedes was able to achieve with their HPP division is impossible for RB and Honda. Unless Honda decides to throw in a lot of money into the project and create a complete division in the UK to handle just the PU build, their only hope is for diminishing returns to kick in and thus allow Honda to fully catch up to Mercedes in all aspects of their PU.

The second problem with Red Bull is I think their aero department is probably built around Newey and his way of working. Mercedes' seems more like a well oiled complex machine, with all the individual cogs working to produce the result, whereas Red Bull seems more like a simpler setup with one black box in the middle (Newey) producing some revolutionary ideas.

[Just_a_fan]

On the back suspension, Mercedes didn't compromise. Their pull rod is as short as possible without any offset, while all the other teams opted for a better aero choice having extreme angles that doesn't help rear wheel low speed grip.

This year the team has been open in saying that they've worked hard to bring something new to the rear suspension in order to improve air flow in this area. As they appeared to be running a relatively small rear wing compared to others, it might appear that their changes have been successful.

What is impressive is that they have changed their car's basic layout this year and still hit the ground running. Having had the "low" sidepod entry for several years and now moving over to the high version, similar to Ferrari and RedBull, of course, they've made it work out of the box. Ferrari have changed aspects of their car and messed it up in a big way, it seems (ignoring Leclerc's lucky finish last week).

[Jolle]

They do, but I think the integration that Mercedes was able to achieve with their HPP division is impossible for RB and Honda. Unless Honda decides to throw in a lot of money into the project and create a complete division in the UK to handle just the PU build, their only hope is for diminishing returns to kick in and thus allow Honda to fully catch up to Mercedes in all aspects of their PU.

The second problem with Red Bull is I think their aero department is probably built around Newey and his way of working. Mercedes' seems more like a well oiled complex machine, with all the individual cogs working to produce the result, whereas Red Bull seems more like a simpler setup with one black box in the middle (Newey) producing some revolutionary ideas.

It's the most visible one and the one everybody points at, but what I'm saying they apply that to every aspect of the car. Most visible is that they don't make the mistakes other teams make, like Ferrari's pull rod front suspension in 2014.

[bosyber]

Well last year Mercedes did make a big miscalculation with the cooling (which showed most notably at this weekend's track, due to the high altitude and very hot weather), but, the rest of the car was good enough, and it wasn't a big enough mistake taking into account everything else they did get right, that it became a deciding issue over the season. I am sure internally it was significant and cost them a lot of work, but from the outside, it was just worked around and then fixed for this year.

I have to say that Red Bull, yet again ending the season as up-and coming challengers, only to start of with 'oh, we found some clear things to work on, but once that is done watch us' almost is as expected now. But also, when they were dominant, it was McLaren and/or Ferrari having a new idea/concept which might work, but ultimately did not give them enough to fight a team that was on a roll, and could just move on from a working concept, improving that iteratively. Except that Mercedes has managed to lift that over to two semi-major aero changes now, with the wider cars and then last year the simplified front wing.

I am sure with the Mercedes car looking as far ahead as it does, there will still be things in the pipeline to optimise that, especially as it will help next year. But it also frees up a lot of people to be put to work, planning and testing out stuff for the 2022 (now) rules, so they can get that done before the budget cap, so to come back to the title of this thread: yes, it might well happen. I currently do not see Red Bull as being as good at adapting to those new rules, nor of being likely to overhaul them before that. Ferrari, well, no right? And McLaren are upcoming, might be real challenger at the front, but ahead, that seems a step too far.

[TAG]

Kudos to Mercedes, but ever since 2014 not a huge amount has changed against them. Plus their competitors struggle to mount season long challenges for titles. So indeed, it's up to the others to catch them.

The entire engine token system was scrapped so other teams could catch up and there was a complete revision of aero and tires since the idea was that Newey would rule that regulation change. Two huge regulation changes designed specifically to bring them down.

[El Scorchio]

Kudos to Mercedes, but ever since 2014 not a huge amount has changed against them. Plus their competitors struggle to mount season long challenges for titles. So indeed, it's up to the others to catch them.

The entire engine token system was scrapped so other teams could catch up and there was a complete revision of aero and tires since the idea was that Newey would rule that regulation change. Two huge regulation changes designed specifically to bring them down.

Maybe not to 'bring them down' but to perhaps try and mitigate the engine advantage they had at the time. I think that whatever the change, they always just seem best prepared for it.

[nzjrs]

Two huge regulation changes designed specifically to bring them down.

You say that like it's a bad thing? I think regulation changes to equalise the field are the DNA of F1.

[dans79]

Two huge regulation changes designed specifically to bring them down.

You say that like it's a bad thing? I think regulation changes to equalise the field are the DNA of F1.

I think we are opposed on this point, in my opinion it's my job as a competitor to beat my opponent not have a third-party intervene in a way that hinders them to make me more competitive.

[TAG]

Two huge regulation changes designed specifically to bring them down.

You say that like it's a bad thing? I think regulation changes to equalise the field are the DNA of F1.

You should be watching Indy, or some other spec series if your like your equalization.

[nzjrs]

Two huge regulation changes designed specifically to bring them down.

You say that like it's a bad thing? I think regulation changes to equalise the field are the DNA of F1.

I think we are opposed on this point, in my opinion it's my job as a competitor to beat my opponent not have a third-party intervene in a way that hinders them to make me more competitive.

I was too concise in my reply. I think targeted interventions to slow down one team are probably wrong, and I don't agree that is a description of what has happened in this Mercedes era.

I do however believe that regular changes to the regulations to equalise the field, if done in a non-biased way (as they should be, and probably are) are an excellent thing, and in the DNA of F1.