Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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The engineers can see Russel is maximizing the grip of the car. They can put feed-back of track and tyre behaviour from after a session into the simulator and see where real life tyre grip is available and possible lines etc.. (Remember Singapore 2018 when HAM beat the simulator's best result?) And I think they are really impressed with Russel.

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Sieper
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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Wynters wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:49 pm
Worth remembering that Leclerc has only two seasons in F1 and has somehow got a car that is running sixth in the WCC (only just in front of AlphaTauri and well adrift of the rest) onto the podium. Twice. He also went to the most high pressure team on the grid, after only one year in F1, and with a 4xWDC winner already firmly and safely positioned there as the publicly acknowledged number 1...and kicked him out within the year.

He's still making occasional stupid mistakes but he's young and inexperienced and that's to be expected. If can iron those out whilst continuing to learn... he's going to be very special indeed.

Of course, this is a topic on 'current', rather than 'future' ability, but there have been some outstanding performances in that dog of a car.
I haven't posted my own list (or motivation) yet. Might do. So far the topic is civil and I feel this topic is created with an open vizor (some of these similar topics have seen a bit disingenuous to me). I agree/feel it is very hard to judge who goes where. And there are multiple aspects of being "good". I do believe Leclerc is up there with the better drivers but are these podiums any less Lucky then Gasly's win. Hardly imho. In Austria he overtook 1 driver. Rest just fell away. As soon as Kimi got demoted and Maurizio Arrivabene got kicked it was a Todt/Leclerc takeover. Ferrari went with Leclerc and I personally believe Verstappen's success has opened the door for many young drivers coming in and getting a real chance (I know this always happens and was due). Ferrari chose Leclerc and why not, he now has even gotten extra time to grow into the role of title contender while Ferrari regroups after the non disclosed happening of last summer.
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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ME4ME wrote:
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:11 pm
Hamilton
Verstappen
Leclerc
Ricciardo
Bottas
Russell
Gasly
Sainz
Perez
Norris
Stroll
Albon
Vettel
Ocon
Raikkonen
Kvyat
Giovinazzi
Magnussen
Grosjean
Latifi

In that order.

Top 4 are pretty straightforward, but TBH you can throw a blanket over the midfield to an extent between Gasly and Stroll. It's difficult to really differentiate and on another day I might go another way and it could look a bit different. Vettel looks low, but as it's 'current' ability I have to go on that which unfortunately is very unfavourable for him and I think there are mitigating circumstances. If it were all these drivers 'at their best', he'd be much higher.
People can never agree on these things, but I think thats a pretty good list. I'd go for that.

Russel is really hard to judge though. How good is he really on a sunday? He hasn't been able to show that because of his machinery. Chance is, he'll be good just as Ricciardo surpiced Red Bull when he came from Toro Rosso and suddenly proved that the one aspect they doubted him upon he was strong at: close racing. At this time I wouldn't put him above Sainz though, who I think has performed well but has had some terrible luck.
I’m very surprised with how high Russell is rated, without having much objective data to judge him by... (A lot of hype maybe?). I haven’t seeing yet anything that would warrant him been in a similar tier to the likes of Ricciardo for example... He has been faster than a Kubica, who had less racing rhythm than him in what was arguably the worst F1 car of the last decade and is beating Latifi, who is in his rookie year and didn’t came to the sport with a lot of fanfare.

What makes people believe that he is in that second tier behind the likes of Hamilton / Verstappen puzzles me.


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Wynters
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:16 pm
I do believe Leclerc is up there with the better drivers but are these podiums any less Lucky then Gasly's win. Hardly imho. In Austria he overtook 1 driver. Rest just fell away.
It's a valid point but I think there's a danger of underplaying what he has achieved because he's not battling at the front of the grid as we've been conditioned to expect a Ferrari to be. You can only overtake who you have in front of you. In this case, he overtook Norris (in the car currently sitting 3rd in the WCC) and kept both him, Sainz and Ocon behind him. At Silverstone, Bottas fell out of the top 10 so Leclerc didn't need to overtake anybody,..but he kept all those other cars behind him for the race. A race in which Vettel finished 11th.

Verstappen qualifies third and generally only needs to overtake one car in order to be (correctly) hailed as having delivered a great drive. Is the gap between the Red Bull and the Mercedes any greater than the gap between the Ferrari and McLaren?

Imagine there were three Mercedes cars. Every podium Verstappen got would be (correctly) hailed as a great drive by an exceptional driver. For Leclerc, there are 10 'Mercedes' cars. The Ferrari is awful this year.

However, he's certainly got his flaws too. I don't think he's as good as Hamilton or Verstappen at the moment. But I don't think he should be outside the conversation for any position below those two. I'm not sure I would rank him 3rd, for instance, but I'd certainly consider it.

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Unf
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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How can you compare drivers each other while they have totally different cars? We will never know who is faster Ham or Max just beacuse they will never be on same car fightning each other, it's obvious.

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214270
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:04 pm
214270 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:16 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:47 pm


Rob kubica could have been just as good as ever, or really poor after his accident, we do not know.
All George can do is beat who ever is there.

Looking at Latifi's record, I would struggle to place him in 'just good' category. This is of course in other series, and I don't know who his competition was, but there would seem to be half a dozen of them in each series.
Again, All George can do is beat him.

Without a known opponent it is very hard to judge, but I would guess at him being at least upper mid field. Then again, that has no proof.
But that’s the point isn’t it...KUB was the only one that scored for the team last year and this year (I assume it’s not random and some form of weighting has been applied to the standings) LAT is listed as 19th with RUS 20th. As for quali, KUB is not/was not an F1 talent at the time I’m sorry to say and LAT is pretty much at the bottom of everyone’s list...that tells you all you need to know.

Instead of this fanciful, hopes & dreams stuff he should be properly rated; which should be low until he shows otherwise.

The only fly in the ointment with this, is Russel's performance when he tested for Merc. I know it was not racing, but still impressive.

Also his Career summary looks good (thanks wiki)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Ru ... ng_driver)
Correct, Merc have data on him...and yet he’s not in the 2nd car.

Anyway, so as not to be misconstrued I’m sure his resumé to-date is sound and I acknowledge he may just be top-tier calibre. My point is his F1 career is bare when properly considered, and assessing him as high as some have it is wild IMO
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El Scorchio
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:19 pm
ME4ME wrote:
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:11 pm
Hamilton
Verstappen
Leclerc
Ricciardo
Bottas
Russell
Gasly
Sainz
Perez
Norris
Stroll
Albon
Vettel
Ocon
Raikkonen
Kvyat
Giovinazzi
Magnussen
Grosjean
Latifi

In that order.

Top 4 are pretty straightforward, but TBH you can throw a blanket over the midfield to an extent between Gasly and Stroll. It's difficult to really differentiate and on another day I might go another way and it could look a bit different. Vettel looks low, but as it's 'current' ability I have to go on that which unfortunately is very unfavourable for him and I think there are mitigating circumstances. If it were all these drivers 'at their best', he'd be much higher.
People can never agree on these things, but I think thats a pretty good list. I'd go for that.

Russel is really hard to judge though. How good is he really on a sunday? He hasn't been able to show that because of his machinery. Chance is, he'll be good just as Ricciardo surpiced Red Bull when he came from Toro Rosso and suddenly proved that the one aspect they doubted him upon he was strong at: close racing. At this time I wouldn't put him above Sainz though, who I think has performed well but has had some terrible luck.
I’m very surprised with how high Russell is rated, without having much objective data to judge him by... (A lot of hype maybe?). I haven’t seeing yet anything that would warrant him been in a similar tier to the likes of Ricciardo for example... He has been faster than a Kubica, who had less racing rhythm than him in what was arguably the worst F1 car of the last decade and is beating Latifi, who is in his rookie year and didn’t came to the sport with a lot of fanfare.

What makes people believe that he is in that second tier behind the likes of Hamilton / Verstappen puzzles me.


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He's definitely (for me) the hardest driver of all to place. I've put him quite high, but as I said, I think you could argue him to fit in anywhere between there and immediately above where Albon is. What I've based it on is how dominant he's been against his team mate and his average qualifying position of 16th this season in what most believe is the worst car on the grid. (Latifi is 19th) There are some big question marks due to him never being in a position to really be competitive on Sundays and show what he's got, but I think he's putting that car where it doesn't really belong on Saturdays and getting more than you'd expect out of it. You can't say that about too many of the guys below him.

All subjective though. But I'm really liking how everyone is respecting everyone else's opinions, despite differences. I definitely wouldn't grumble if someone put him 11th. I might if they put him any lower!

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El Scorchio
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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Unf wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:06 pm
How can you compare drivers each other while they have totally different cars? We will never know who is faster Ham or Max just beacuse they will never be on same car fightning each other, it's obvious.
For fun? Just write down what you think the order is. It seems on this thread at least people are free to do so without anyone attacking your opinion, so fill your boots!

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Big Tea
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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214270 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:07 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:04 pm
214270 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:16 pm

But that’s the point isn’t it...KUB was the only one that scored for the team last year and this year (I assume it’s not random and some form of weighting has been applied to the standings) LAT is listed as 19th with RUS 20th. As for quali, KUB is not/was not an F1 talent at the time I’m sorry to say and LAT is pretty much at the bottom of everyone’s list...that tells you all you need to know.

Instead of this fanciful, hopes & dreams stuff he should be properly rated; which should be low until he shows otherwise.

The only fly in the ointment with this, is Russel's performance when he tested for Merc. I know it was not racing, but still impressive.

Also his Career summary looks good (thanks wiki)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Ru ... ng_driver)
Correct, Merc have data on him...and yet he’s not in the 2nd car.

Anyway, so as not to be misconstrued I’m sure his resumé to-date is sound and I acknowledge he may just be top-tier calibre. My point is his F1 career is bare when properly considered, and assessing him as high as some have it is wild IMO
As DiResta keeps reminding us, he stuffed Vettel in lower formula, so that is not necessarily a gauge
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SmallSoldier
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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El Scorchio wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:19 pm
ME4ME wrote: People can never agree on these things, but I think thats a pretty good list. I'd go for that.

Russel is really hard to judge though. How good is he really on a sunday? He hasn't been able to show that because of his machinery. Chance is, he'll be good just as Ricciardo surpiced Red Bull when he came from Toro Rosso and suddenly proved that the one aspect they doubted him upon he was strong at: close racing. At this time I wouldn't put him above Sainz though, who I think has performed well but has had some terrible luck.
I’m very surprised with how high Russell is rated, without having much objective data to judge him by... (A lot of hype maybe?). I haven’t seeing yet anything that would warrant him been in a similar tier to the likes of Ricciardo for example... He has been faster than a Kubica, who had less racing rhythm than him in what was arguably the worst F1 car of the last decade and is beating Latifi, who is in his rookie year and didn’t came to the sport with a lot of fanfare.

What makes people believe that he is in that second tier behind the likes of Hamilton / Verstappen puzzles me.


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He's definitely (for me) the hardest driver of all to place. I've put him quite high, but as I said, I think you could argue him to fit in anywhere between there and immediately above where Albon is. What I've based it on is how dominant he's been against his team mate and his average qualifying position of 16th this season in what most believe is the worst car on the grid. (Latifi is 19th) There are some big question marks due to him never being in a position to really be competitive on Sundays and show what he's got, but I think he's putting that car where it doesn't really belong on Saturdays and getting more than you'd expect out of it. You can't say that about too many of the guys below him.

All subjective though. But I'm really liking how everyone is respecting everyone else's opinions, despite differences. I definitely wouldn't grumble if someone put him 11th. I might if they put him any lower!
Thanks for explaining your reasoning behind his placement... This is just opinions, so there isn’t going to be a right and a wrong one at the end of the day, I just find it interesting how high Russell is rated by most, when he is yet to show that he is better than the drivers that are rated below him.

Is a similar situation with Kimi, who some rate him low, but seem to forget that he is a Champion already, that he has raced “successfully” for top teams as Mclaren and Ferrari.

I like what some have done in terms of tiers, because placing some drivers is extremely difficult, since they are all driving different cars, therefore making comparisons between them is almost impossible... For example, you rate Perez higher than Norris, I would argue that the MCL35 is inferior to the RP20 (W10) and yet, Norris has managed to outqualify and outrace Perez in more than one occasion... I wouldn’t rate Gasty higher than Norris either, last year in Norris’ rookie season and with an inferior car to the RB15 he was matching or beating Gasly on occasion.

I guess that it would be interesting if people will define their logic behind their placements in a ranking... The only thing that is clear to me is that in 2020 Hamilton is at the top of the list, followed by Max, below them there is a bunch of drivers that are very close to each other, RIC, LEC, RAI, SAI, NOR, BOT are all on that same group at least in my view (I believe VET belongs in that group, although not in 2020)... I would then have a group with ALB, PER, STR, GAS, OCO, RUS and MAG (another reason why VET belongs in the upper group, because he is clearly better than the ones in this group)... And a final group with GRO, KVY, GIO and LAT


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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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Wynters wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:02 pm
Sieper wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:16 pm
I do believe Leclerc is up there with the better drivers but are these podiums any less Lucky then Gasly's win. Hardly imho. In Austria he overtook 1 driver. Rest just fell away.
It's a valid point but I think there's a danger of underplaying what he has achieved because he's not battling at the front of the grid as we've been conditioned to expect a Ferrari to be. You can only overtake who you have in front of you. In this case, he overtook Norris (in the car currently sitting 3rd in the WCC) and kept both him, Sainz and Ocon behind him. At Silverstone, Bottas fell out of the top 10 so Leclerc didn't need to overtake anybody,..but he kept all those other cars behind him for the race. A race in which Vettel finished 11th.

Verstappen qualifies third and generally only needs to overtake one car in order to be (correctly) hailed as having delivered a great drive. Is the gap between the Red Bull and the Mercedes any greater than the gap between the Ferrari and McLaren?

Imagine there were three Mercedes cars. Every podium Verstappen got would be (correctly) hailed as a great drive by an exceptional driver. For Leclerc, there are 10 'Mercedes' cars. The Ferrari is awful this year.

However, he's certainly got his flaws too. I don't think he's as good as Hamilton or Verstappen at the moment. But I don't think he should be outside the conversation for any position below those two. I'm not sure I would rank him 3rd, for instance, but I'd certainly consider it.
Once again, great post Wynters. The only part that I differ, is the last part. It's difficult to say, Leclerc isn't as good as Hamilton or Verstappen, unless there is a real fight there between the three. Unlike Hamilton, neither Verstappen, nor Leclerc have gotten into championship contenders from the Season 1. This is Verstappen's 6th year in F1 and 5th year in Red Bull, which has consistently been a podium contender. If this comparison would have been happening in 2017, does anyone would have said Verstappen was in the same league as Hamilton? Would anyone have rated Hamilton among the greats in 2011, despite having 4 years in F1 and with a title? With Leclerc having had one season with the top car, where he clearly outshone his team mate and won 2 GPs on merit, it's hard to say if he is or he is not on par with Hamilton and Verstappen.

To his credit, he hasn't had a clumsy race yet and has always been clean and brought home great haul of points. That in itself is a considerable achievement for someone who spent only one year at the sharp end of the grid. Driving in a chaotic mid-field, full of drivers who are overzealous to win a GP at the first corner, it shows his temperament and awareness. Remember the first 3 to 4 years of Verstappen and compare to that of Leclerc's!
Last edited by Moore77 on Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:24 pm
214270 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:07 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:04 pm



The only fly in the ointment with this, is Russel's performance when he tested for Merc. I know it was not racing, but still impressive.

Also his Career summary looks good (thanks wiki)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Ru ... ng_driver)
Correct, Merc have data on him...and yet he’s not in the 2nd car.

Anyway, so as not to be misconstrued I’m sure his resumé to-date is sound and I acknowledge he may just be top-tier calibre. My point is his F1 career is bare when properly considered, and assessing him as high as some have it is wild IMO
As DiResta keeps reminding us, he stuffed Vettel in lower formula, so that is not necessarily a gauge
Lol, that I agree with 👍
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dans79
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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Moore77 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:33 pm
To his credit, he hasn't had a clumsy race yet and has always been clean and brought home great haul of points.
2020 Styrian Grand Prix?
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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dans79 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:45 pm
Moore77 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:33 pm
To his credit, he hasn't had a clumsy race yet and has always been clean and brought home great haul of points.
2020 Styrian Grand Prix?
It's arguable, but for the sake of this discussion, it's acceptable as a faulty decision.
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El Scorchio
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:32 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:19 pm

I’m very surprised with how high Russell is rated, without having much objective data to judge him by... (A lot of hype maybe?). I haven’t seeing yet anything that would warrant him been in a similar tier to the likes of Ricciardo for example... He has been faster than a Kubica, who had less racing rhythm than him in what was arguably the worst F1 car of the last decade and is beating Latifi, who is in his rookie year and didn’t came to the sport with a lot of fanfare.

What makes people believe that he is in that second tier behind the likes of Hamilton / Verstappen puzzles me.


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He's definitely (for me) the hardest driver of all to place. I've put him quite high, but as I said, I think you could argue him to fit in anywhere between there and immediately above where Albon is. What I've based it on is how dominant he's been against his team mate and his average qualifying position of 16th this season in what most believe is the worst car on the grid. (Latifi is 19th) There are some big question marks due to him never being in a position to really be competitive on Sundays and show what he's got, but I think he's putting that car where it doesn't really belong on Saturdays and getting more than you'd expect out of it. You can't say that about too many of the guys below him.

All subjective though. But I'm really liking how everyone is respecting everyone else's opinions, despite differences. I definitely wouldn't grumble if someone put him 11th. I might if they put him any lower!
Thanks for explaining your reasoning behind his placement... This is just opinions, so there isn’t going to be a right and a wrong one at the end of the day, I just find it interesting how high Russell is rated by most, when he is yet to show that he is better than the drivers that are rated below him.

Is a similar situation with Kimi, who some rate him low, but seem to forget that he is a Champion already, that he has raced “successfully” for top teams as Mclaren and Ferrari.

I like what some have done in terms of tiers, because placing some drivers is extremely difficult, since they are all driving different cars, therefore making comparisons between them is almost impossible... For example, you rate Perez higher than Norris, I would argue that the MCL35 is inferior to the RP20 (W10) and yet, Norris has managed to outqualify and outrace Perez in more than one occasion... I wouldn’t rate Gasty higher than Norris either, last year in Norris’ rookie season and with an inferior car to the RB15 he was matching or beating Gasly on occasion.

I guess that it would be interesting if people will define their logic behind their placements in a ranking... The only thing that is clear to me is that in 2020 Hamilton is at the top of the list, followed by Max, below them there is a bunch of drivers that are very close to each other, RIC, LEC, RAI, SAI, NOR, BOT are all on that same group at least in my view (I believe VET belongs in that group, although not in 2020)... I would then have a group with ALB, PER, STR, GAS, OCO, RUS and MAG (another reason why VET belongs in the upper group, because he is clearly better than the ones in this group)... And a final group with GRO, KVY, GIO and LAT


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No worries! I think tiers are fairer and easier, although I really liked the thought/challenge of having to do it 1-20 which made a nice change, otherwise I think I'd be looking at pretty similar groupings to you for the same reasons.

Actually now you come to mention it Kimi is a difficult one too. I've been really literal with 'current'. Again if it was 'last 5 years' or even 'last two years', he like Vettel would be somewhat higher!