Honda leaving F1.

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gshevlin
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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If Red Bull does not want to have to deal with Renault, and F1 wants to keep 4 powerplant suppliers, there have long been rumours of the existence of a prototype F1 hybrid powerplant in the labs of a German car company whose name begins with P and ends in e.
But if they want to go that route, they need to be signing contracts yesterday.

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nzjrs
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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gshevlin wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:42 pm
If Red Bull does not want to have to deal with Renault, and F1 wants to keep 4 powerplant suppliers, there have long been rumours of the existence of a prototype F1 hybrid powerplant in the labs of a German car company whose name begins with P and ends in e.
But if they want to go that route, they need to be signing contracts yesterday.
Yeah I saw Joe Saward dropped that on his blog. But without structural changes that would just be repeating the story of the last many years, with a token system once again, and less time before the next engine formula.

Either nothing changes or everything has to, are the two options, in my opinion at least.

bill shoe
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Big Tea wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:07 pm

I am sad to see Honda go, but equally sad to see the glaring warning sign to anyone else not to get involved.

Keep out, bad publicity and loads of cash for little return.
Simple and accurate. There aren't any other car companies that will sit up in the sunlight, look around, and say "Yes, we are confident that we will successfully navigate this once-in-100-years change to the industry plus have a couple billion $ left over to play in Formula 1 while we do it."

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coaster
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Honda stated they would leave F1 in an engine supply capacity, that wording still leaves the door open for a works team.
Know of any teams for sale or soon to be?
Im sure a few will be available.
What is known about Dorilton capital?
Its a faceless group of investors, who?

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djos
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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If the FIA were smart, they’d mandate a Porsche LMP1 style hybrid system (minus front wheel drive system) .

It’s much simpler than the current overly complicated PU’s and yet super powerful.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Edax
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:57 pm
Edax wrote:
Big Tea wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:51 am


I just had an image of steam blowing the windows out at Ferrari HQ when they read that :twisted:
There is an alternative. All teams moving to a Ferrari engine.

As I see it this situation is not sustainable. Honda has pulled out, and frankly I am waiting for the same announcement from Renault.

Then we’re down to two. That is Michelin vs Bridgestone again an we know how that ends.

Besides I think Aston Martin and McLaren show that car manufacturers rather have their name on a winning frame than on a losing engine.
A little over dramatic? Before McLaren pulled Honda back into F1 we had 3 engine manufacturers, so in that sense nothing is changing... Mercedes seems to be in (at least from a PU perspective) for the foreseeable future, Ferrari isn’t going anywhere and out of all manufacturers Renault is the one that seems more invested into at least the next 5 years.

Losing Honda won’t be the end of F1, just like it wasn’t when they left in previous eras.


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As far as I know there was only one year in the entire F1 history where there were only 3 engine manufacturers, I would hardly call that the norm.

The change that is going on now is unprecedented both in speed and magnitude. The petrol car market is collapsing and the electric car market is booming. The writing was perhaps on the wall but Covid has accelerated this, to the point where it has caught out several big manufacturers.

All the OEM’s are now scrambling to get their stake in the electric market. That means developing the technology, replacing the lineup and retooling the factories.

Renault may be publicly stating that they are committed. But so did Honda until a few weeks back, and now they have decided that they need the money and the engineering resources to go all electric. And if they are smart Renault should do the same, how painfull it may be for F1.

gshevlin
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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nzjrs wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:01 pm
gshevlin wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:42 pm
If Red Bull does not want to have to deal with Renault, and F1 wants to keep 4 powerplant suppliers, there have long been rumours of the existence of a prototype F1 hybrid powerplant in the labs of a German car company whose name begins with P and ends in e.
But if they want to go that route, they need to be signing contracts yesterday.
Yeah I saw Joe Saward dropped that on his blog. But without structural changes that would just be repeating the story of the last many years, with a token system once again, and less time before the next engine formula.

Either nothing changes or everything has to, are the two options, in my opinion at least.
Well yes, the problem is that f1 needs to turn the PU paradigm upside down and move to having open regulations based on some fundamentals of energy efficiency and severe limits on spending, rather than heavily restricted regulations and no spending restrictions. The latter paradigm results in the current technological arms race, with hundreds of millions being spent to find a few horsepower as technical and regulation limits are reached.

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Zynerji
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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I miss the frozen V8 days, and I cannot believe that I just typed that...🙄

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nzjrs
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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gshevlin wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:46 am
Well yes, the problem is that f1 needs to turn the PU paradigm upside down and move to having open regulations based on some fundamentals of energy efficiency and severe limits on spending, rather than heavily restricted regulations and no spending restrictions. The latter paradigm results in the current technological arms race, with hundreds of millions being spent to find a few horsepower as technical and regulation limits are reached.
Indeed. I Agree.

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Schippke
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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coaster wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:04 pm
Honda stated they would leave F1 in an engine supply capacity, that wording still leaves the door open for a works team.
Know of any teams for sale or soon to be?
If Honda were considering in being a Works team, they would've made some form of announcement regarding that instead of announcing pulling out of the sport entirely. But hey, let's speculate for the fun of it! :D

If the rumours of Mercedes selling the team were true, imagine if Honda bought it... AGAIN! Would be an interesting (astonishing?) turn of events, having to shoehorn the Honda Power Unit into the current Mercedes. In saying that, purchasing the team would be a few hundreds of millions so that'll put a stop to that idea.

gshevlin
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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The other main problem with any new PU formula is how to encourage later entrants. F1 has tried token systems, but, like equivalency formulas, nobody is ever happy with them.
With hindsight, F1 was lucky to have Honda join in 2015, but their first 3 years were horrible, and I was somewhat surprised that they even continued, although you can see that their pride was what drove them on.
Right now, I do not see any other manufacturer that does not already have a bench engine being remotely interested in the current PU formula. As other folks are pointing out, the drift to non-fossil technologies is becoming a stampede, and ICE-based PU formulae are of no interest to major auto manufacturers unless the costs are strictly controlled and the specifications are non-ambitious, so that they can run them as a secondary racing marketing promotion exercise, rather than part of core R&D.

gshevlin
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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You will notice that within 48 hours of Honda announcing that they were ceasing involvement in F1, Honda USA announced that they are extending their involvement in Indycar with the revised hybrid PU formula . This is a simpler, lower cost formula built around a basic 2.4 liter lightly turbocharged V8. It is cheap to develop (relative to F1) and relatively cheap to service and maintain. It can therefore be justified as part of a marketing budget, rather than an R&D exercise.

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Scorpaguy
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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djos wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:21 am
If the FIA were smart, they’d mandate a Porsche LMP1 style hybrid system (minus front wheel drive system) .

It’s much simpler than the current overly complicated PU’s and yet super powerful.
...what if FIA made a mandate for all of their series to use the same engine formula. Different series' needs could be addressed in the boost, ERS, and gearbox strategies. Imagine F1, WRC, LMP, etc. all working to extract max HP from the same block.

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coaster
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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I thought the indy motor was fully worked over production V6? Much like the A1gp ferrari motor, basic castings head, block.

MrMuffins
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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coaster wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:16 am
I thought the indy motor was fully worked over production V6? Much like the A1gp ferrari motor, basic castings head, block.
The 2.2L HPD engine that they use in Indycar is a fully purpose-built stressed member.