Honda leaving F1.

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gshevlin
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Remember that the Indycar engine supply program is a project funded by Honda North America. They do get tech support from Honda in Japan if they ask for it, and all major decisions have to be blessed in Japan (as Fernando Alonso discovered when Honda HQ vetoed his use of a Honda PU for the forseeable future in Indycar).
The important difference between the Indycar program (apart from the technical scope, which is very limited compared to the F1 hybrid formula) and the F1 program is that Honda North America is funding the Indycar program as a marketing project, not an R&D project. The sums of money spent on the Indycar program are very small compared to the amount of money Honda is having to spend on the F1 program.

Partymood
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Big Tea wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:51 am
Edax wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:05 am
Here’s a thought. Mercedes has been rumored to sell their F1 team.

I doubt that deal would include engine dev. That is too close to Merc core technology. Not having a team affiliated to their name would mean they can be less picky about who they supply to.

Mercedes now supplies to 3 teams, 4 next year. 5 and 6 have just become available.

The step to a semi-spec series based around a single engine has suddenly become very small.
I just had an image of steam blowing the windows out at Ferrari HQ when they read that :twisted:
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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ispano6 wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:59 pm
AMG.Tzan wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:39 am
Honda sticking to Indycar's 2023 engine just shows that the "carbon neutral by 2050" claims are plain excuses for leaving F1!

How much of a hypocrisy's this? Even the architecture of Indycar's engine is way outdated...simple engine with KERS...something F1 had 10 years back!

But that's OEMs for you! They get in n out whenever they want to and for no apparent reason!

So they're just saying: "Deal with it F1" 8)
Indy IS going hybrid...
And Honda might have a head start on that thanks to their F1 involvement. Couple that with Indy only being a two-horse race in terms of engine supplier and Honda are probably thinking they've got a good chance to "do a Mercedes" in Indy.
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kalinka
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Really, one (Liberty) have to wonder....

https://www.indycar.com/News/2020/10/10 ... nouncement

"INDYCAR has reached a new, multi-year extension with engine partners Honda and Chevrolet, taking their partnership well into the end of the decade and providing stability and innovation for the NTT INDYCAR SERIES."

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Phil
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Not really. The big car manufacturers are in it for the exposure. That exposure has to be good. If the cost/reward ratio doesn't work, why should they? This has been a long issue in the brewing ever since F1 went after the big engine manufacturers at the expense of the old privateers who are in it for themselves and because racing is their business.
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kalinka
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Phil wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:41 am
Not really. The big car manufacturers are in it for the exposure. That exposure has to be good. If the cost/reward ratio doesn't work, why should they? This has been a long issue in the brewing ever since F1 went after the big engine manufacturers at the expense of the old privateers who are in it for themselves and because racing is their business.
Yeah, if that was intentional, then they "not really" have to wonder...but I doubt it. I can only suspect the real reasons, but I think Liberty found that the F1 ship is much harder to steer in any other direction it was going before.

wesley123
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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AMG.Tzan wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:39 am
Honda sticking to Indycar's 2023 engine just shows that the "carbon neutral by 2050" claims are plain excuses for leaving F1!
How so? Frankly enough I can't see many manufacturers wanting to commit spending billions of dollars on an engine that doesn't even show what you can do as a manufacturer. Then it quickly becomes a waste of money when you can do essentially the same thing for 1% of the money you spend in F1.
How much of a hypocrisy's this? Even the architecture of Indycar's engine is way outdated...simple engine with KERS...something F1 had 10 years back!
What does that matter? F1 engines aren't all that cutting edge if you consider how rule restricted they are. As for Indycar being '10 years behind'. F1 itself isn't really up to date really. McLaren was experimenting with KERS as early as 1999. And the first mass marketed hybrids came around that time as well. So F1 itself is 10 years behind as well.
But that's OEMs for you! They get in n out whenever they want to and for no apparent reason!

So they're just saying: "Deal with it F1" 8)
The reason seems fairly obvious; It is a waste of money and there is nothing to actually gain. The status quo is practically set, which means that manufacturers have to bet on the next set of engine regulations to make their mark. And I don't fully know what this next engine will be, but as far as I'm aware it isn't embracing new technologies.

The way F1 is set up now is that you only want to be present as long as you win, or feel a responsibility to the series. And then you just end up with the 3 manufacturers currently present. They all have been in for a long time by now, and thus fit the 'responsibility'. A Honda, BMW, Toyota or whatever does not, which in turn means there is no incentive to join.
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214270
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:58 am
ispano6 wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:59 pm
AMG.Tzan wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:39 am
Honda sticking to Indycar's 2023 engine just shows that the "carbon neutral by 2050" claims are plain excuses for leaving F1!

How much of a hypocrisy's this? Even the architecture of Indycar's engine is way outdated...simple engine with KERS...something F1 had 10 years back!

But that's OEMs for you! They get in n out whenever they want to and for no apparent reason!

So they're just saying: "Deal with it F1" 8)
Indy IS going hybrid...
And Honda might have a head start on that thanks to their F1 involvement. Couple that with Indy only being a two-horse race in terms of engine supplier and Honda are probably thinking they've got a good chance to "do a Mercedes" in Indy.
Pretty sensible if you ask me. They have not been able to really stamp their presence on F1, but if they can then dominate another series with what they’ve been able to learn; good for them. The Indy exposure is not a patch on F1, but maybe that’s not so relevant.
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Andres125sx
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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AMG.Tzan wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:47 am
Classic Japanese idiots...pulling out without any warning and after having the best chance of winning at last (2022)! Same as in 2009!
Agree, I can´t understand the decision, really :shock:


AMG.Tzan wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:47 am
Anyway, Formula 1 is in need of new engine regulations and i don't see how they are not going fully electric by 2025!
Fully electric is not an option. Apart from batteries wich are years or even decades ago from being able to provide the necessary juice for F1 power levels and race lenghts (from an electric fan), theres an even bigger problem, FE owns the rights for fully electric single seaters under FIA regulations

SmallSoldier
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Big Tea wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:57 pm
Edax wrote: There is an alternative. All teams moving to a Ferrari engine.

As I see it this situation is not sustainable. Honda has pulled out, and frankly I am waiting for the same announcement from Renault.

Then we’re down to two. That is Michelin vs Bridgestone again an we know how that ends.

Besides I think Aston Martin and McLaren show that car manufacturers rather have their name on a winning frame than on a losing engine.
A little over dramatic? Before McLaren pulled Honda back into F1 we had 3 engine manufacturers, so in that sense nothing is changing... Mercedes seems to be in (at least from a PU perspective) for the foreseeable future, Ferrari isn’t going anywhere and out of all manufacturers Renault is the one that seems more invested into at least the next 5 years.

Losing Honda won’t be the end of F1, just like it wasn’t when they left in previous eras.


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Honda leaving after putting so much money into it and not winning a championship is going to really deter anyone coming in to F1 for the foreseeable future. I loved Honda and their ethos in F1, but the figures are what will be looked at down the line no matter what reason Honda gives for leaving.

I am sad to see Honda go, but equally sad to see the glaring warning sign to anyone else not to get involved.

Keep out, bad publicity and loads of cash for little return.
You are right, but it was the case before Honda exited... No new engine manufacturers were in the horizon, so it’s not like if Honda pulling out of F1 has deterred potential new players from entering F1. If anything, it may have validated their decisions already.

Now, if a PU manufacturer would like to come into F1 and not be behind the curve and spend that much money, there are probably ways to do it if enough parties are interested... Buying a year old PU from a current manufacturer to understand the basics of what current engines need? A Renault or a Mercedes may not be totally opposed to sell a season old technology for the right price (since that technology doesn’t create any value anymore) and for the right amount might be willing to sell that IP to a new entrant (it isn’t like the current PU technology is very road relevant, so not a lot to lose there)... Buying the IP from Honda and taking it from where they left of is another possibility.

The above is extremely unlikely, but it would be a way to reduce the entrance cost and performance difference for a new manufacturer, the FIA would probably broker the deal and it would be a matter of if one of the teams is interested in that extra cash influx.


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SmallSoldier
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Edax wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:57 pm
Edax wrote: There is an alternative. All teams moving to a Ferrari engine.

As I see it this situation is not sustainable. Honda has pulled out, and frankly I am waiting for the same announcement from Renault.

Then we’re down to two. That is Michelin vs Bridgestone again an we know how that ends.

Besides I think Aston Martin and McLaren show that car manufacturers rather have their name on a winning frame than on a losing engine.
A little over dramatic? Before McLaren pulled Honda back into F1 we had 3 engine manufacturers, so in that sense nothing is changing... Mercedes seems to be in (at least from a PU perspective) for the foreseeable future, Ferrari isn’t going anywhere and out of all manufacturers Renault is the one that seems more invested into at least the next 5 years.

Losing Honda won’t be the end of F1, just like it wasn’t when they left in previous eras.


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As far as I know there was only one year in the entire F1 history where there were only 3 engine manufacturers, I would hardly call that the norm.

The change that is going on now is unprecedented both in speed and magnitude. The petrol car market is collapsing and the electric car market is booming. The writing was perhaps on the wall but Covid has accelerated this, to the point where it has caught out several big manufacturers.

All the OEM’s are now scrambling to get their stake in the electric market. That means developing the technology, replacing the lineup and retooling the factories.

Renault may be publicly stating that they are committed. But so did Honda until a few weeks back, and now they have decided that they need the money and the engineering resources to go all electric. And if they are smart Renault should do the same, how painfull it may be for F1.
But it’s not like Honda’s re-entering F1 “saved” the sport by any means... F1 will survive without Honda.

In regards to their commitment, it is very different Honda never committed beyond 2021, while Renault has signed the new Agreement, their level of commitment is very different.


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Big Tea
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:48 pm
Big Tea wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:57 pm

A little over dramatic? Before McLaren pulled Honda back into F1 we had 3 engine manufacturers, so in that sense nothing is changing... Mercedes seems to be in (at least from a PU perspective) for the foreseeable future, Ferrari isn’t going anywhere and out of all manufacturers Renault is the one that seems more invested into at least the next 5 years.

Losing Honda won’t be the end of F1, just like it wasn’t when they left in previous eras.


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Honda leaving after putting so much money into it and not winning a championship is going to really deter anyone coming in to F1 for the foreseeable future. I loved Honda and their ethos in F1, but the figures are what will be looked at down the line no matter what reason Honda gives for leaving.

I am sad to see Honda go, but equally sad to see the glaring warning sign to anyone else not to get involved.

Keep out, bad publicity and loads of cash for little return.
You are right, but it was the case before Honda exited... No new engine manufacturers were in the horizon, so it’s not like if Honda pulling out of F1 has deterred potential new players from entering F1. If anything, it may have validated their decisions already.

Now, if a PU manufacturer would like to come into F1 and not be behind the curve and spend that much money, there are probably ways to do it if enough parties are interested... Buying a year old PU from a current manufacturer to understand the basics of what current engines need? A Renault or a Mercedes may not be totally opposed to sell a season old technology for the right price (since that technology doesn’t create any value anymore) and for the right amount might be willing to sell that IP to a new entrant (it isn’t like the current PU technology is very road relevant, so not a lot to lose there)... Buying the IP from Honda and taking it from where they left of is another possibility.

The above is extremely unlikely, but it would be a way to reduce the entrance cost and performance difference for a new manufacturer, the FIA would probably broker the deal and it would be a matter of if one of the teams is interested in that extra cash influx.


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I think the only (realistic) chance would be a maker to be present at the discussions for the 2025 engine, then go home and start work on it right away.

The teams in F1 can not test and must follow all sorts of regs, but an outside company can buy an old chassis and put as many miles on it as the want and get a jump start.

I would like to see two or three companies there for the decision and put their view forward. I know two were there last time and did not show up with an engine, but at least there would be several versions of which was wanted.

I think there is no doubt it will be very much hybrid, but the power unit driving it should be very loosely defined.
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tangodjango
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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https://the-race.com/formula-1/honda-op ... post-2021/

"Honda’s Formula 1 project leader is willing to discuss Red Bull keeping its engines after its 2021 F1 exit so the team can develop them itself or with a new partner.

Honda will leave F1 at the end of 2021 to redirect its research and development resources towards major automotive targets it has set, but wants to support the succession plan Red Bull must come up with for an alternative engine supply for its two teams."
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

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Big Tea
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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tangodjango wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:13 pm
https://the-race.com/formula-1/honda-op ... post-2021/

"Honda’s Formula 1 project leader is willing to discuss Red Bull keeping its engines after its 2021 F1 exit so the team can develop them itself or with a new partner.

Honda will leave F1 at the end of 2021 to redirect its research and development resources towards major automotive targets it has set, but wants to support the succession plan Red Bull must come up with for an alternative engine supply for its two teams."
That would be very good news if true. Even thought he just says he will talk to Tokyo.
If they feel the same way could be a different matter

TBH, I don't think cost would be that big a deterrent to Red bull, especially if they could get another team on board slush as Haas
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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214270 wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:15 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:58 am
ispano6 wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:59 pm


Indy IS going hybrid...
And Honda might have a head start on that thanks to their F1 involvement. Couple that with Indy only being a two-horse race in terms of engine supplier and Honda are probably thinking they've got a good chance to "do a Mercedes" in Indy.
Pretty sensible if you ask me. They have not been able to really stamp their presence on F1, but if they can then dominate another series with what they’ve been able to learn; good for them. The Indy exposure is not a patch on F1, but maybe that’s not so relevant.
Indycar’s KERS will be a spec unit bolted onto the ICE manufacturers (almost spec) current V8T. The car is a spec Dallara. There is very little technical development in Indycar these days.