Honda leaving F1.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Zynerji wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:50 am
I miss the frozen V8 days, and I cannot believe that I just typed that...🙄
I dunno.... In the V8 days.... There was no discussion of engine performance or upgrades ("reliability") other than cold blowing and hot blowing... It was all aero talk. Engines were boring. not much difference between them... Nothing much to talk about. But these turbo Hybrids really brought back the excitement to the engine side of things. That's what I love about this era.

I would love for another engine shake up soon even sooner than 2025.
.. OG.. OG.. OG.. OG..

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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adrianjordan wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:31 am
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:26 am
coaster wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:10 am
Agreed, time to purge.
Let it all bankrupt and maybe from the ashes a new series may form.
You do not need to go that far, quit and promote F2 to the top
More likely Formula E.

That's where the future is headed eventually. Why not have F1 take the EV crown and run with it.

You would find VW Group, BMW, Honda and many more jumping at the chance to develop world beating EV motors with a sporty reputation.

I know it's not what petrol heads want, but it is coming and sooner than many of us could have imagined.
Yuck.. Anything slow and electric is not really pinnacle of motorsport. That's cheap marketing for manufacturers.
They spend a few dimes, and get "good, green PR", and maybe some appearance of road relevance.

Battery tech needs to be at least six times more energy dense before it reaches F1 levels of speed and endurance. I definitely don't want to see F1 go this way any time soon.
.. OG.. OG.. OG.. OG..

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Big Tea
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:00 pm
adrianjordan wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:31 am
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:26 am


You do not need to go that far, quit and promote F2 to the top
More likely Formula E.

That's where the future is headed eventually. Why not have F1 take the EV crown and run with it.

You would find VW Group, BMW, Honda and many more jumping at the chance to develop world beating EV motors with a sporty reputation.

I know it's not what petrol heads want, but it is coming and sooner than many of us could have imagined.
Yuck.. Anything slow and electric is not really pinnacle of motorsport. That's cheap marketing for manufacturers.
They spend a few dimes, and get "good, green PR", and maybe some appearance of road relevance.

Battery tech needs to be at least six times more energy dense before it reaches F1 levels of speed and endurance. I definitely don't want to see F1 go this way any time soon.
But if it was not under Formal E regs, or ethos, it would not need to be slow. I am quite confident that if the regs said they could even today they could build an electric car to beat one of todays F1 who are within very tight limits.

Ok, range may put a spoke in it, but with a smaller battery pack than FE, constantly recharged from a 'unit' with strict emissions I think it would be close.

I say 'unit' as there are several ways to drive a generator with very tight emissions control. An ICE driving the car allong side would be even better.
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So don't kick.

BrunoH
BrunoH
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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bring back the v12 ... fk even the v8....

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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For Electic Formula 1. The weight is your elephant in the room. More weight needs more downforce and consumes more tyre life. Can do a basic estimate and add 1,000lbs of weight if we look at supercars. But lets havea deeper look.

With Current battery packs... 95kWh is about 365kg of battery.. Rimac has 120KWh.. Current 105kg of fuel is about 1200kWhr times 50% about 600Kwhr. So we need 5 to 6 battery changes per race. (assuming same car weight!)

The batter would be a massive thing taking up the floor and where the fuel tank would be... with best tech of 260Whrs/kg... And assuming a 120kWhr battery. That's about 460kg of battery. Not including the protective packaging itself.

Using the Rimac motors as an example of most powerful...
Put a 2X 350Kw motors side by side or in series for rear wheel drive. For 700kW total. Slightly weaker than today's power units in peak power but on the good side max torque can be had even from zero speed. Management of the massive motor torque would be interesting.

To give the tyres a hope and a prayer, maybe four wheel drive? But it might be too dangerous to put a motor in front of the driver. Maybe a metal structure or something have to be used to keep it.

Ok.. So lets stick to rear wheel drive. Say our double motors and gearbox weigh 160kg total for rear wheel drive. Thats about the weight of the current ICE coincidentally. Not counting bigger shafts needed for the torque. But cooling should be interesting. Should need less radiator. Maybe maybe not.

It means we are still about 450kg overweight. And we need five battery changes. Or five car changes?! Lol
.. OG.. OG.. OG.. OG..

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Big Tea
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:40 pm
For Electic Formula 1. The weight is your elephant in the room. More weight needs more downforce and consumes more tyre life. Can do a basic estimate and add 1,000lbs of weight if we look at supercars. But lets havea deeper look.

With Current battery packs... 95kWh is about 365kg of battery.. Rimac has 120KWh.. Current 105kg of fuel is about 1200kWhr times 50% about 600Kwhr. So we need 5 to 6 battery changes per race. (assuming same car weight!)

The batter would be a massive thing taking up the floor and where the fuel tank would be... with best tech of 260Whrs/kg... And assuming a 120kWhr battery. That's about 460kg of battery. Not including the protective packaging itself.

Using the Rimac motors as an example of most powerful...
Put a 2X 350Kw motors side by side or in series for rear wheel drive. For 700kW total. Slightly weaker than today's power units in peak power but on the good side max torque can be had even from zero speed. Management of the massive motor torque would be interesting.

To give the tyres a hope and a prayer, maybe four wheel drive? But it might be too dangerous to put a motor in front of the driver. Maybe a metal structure or something have to be used to keep it.

Ok.. So lets stick to rear wheel drive. Say our double motors and gearbox weigh 160kg total for rear wheel drive. Thats about the weight of the current ICE coincidentally. Not counting bigger shafts needed for the torque. But cooling should be interesting. Should need less radiator. Maybe maybe not.

It means we are still about 450kg overweight. And we need five battery changes. Or five car changes?! Lol
Yeh, but apart form that it would be good ( :D )
What about a 1ltr ICE with much wider options than now and unlimited harvesting?
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So don't kick.

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hUirEYExbN
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:49 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:40 pm
For Electic Formula 1. The weight is your elephant in the room. More weight needs more downforce and consumes more tyre life. Can do a basic estimate and add 1,000lbs of weight if we look at supercars. But lets havea deeper look.
With Current battery packs... 95kWh is about 365kg of battery.. Rimac has 120KWh.. Current 105kg of fuel is about 1200kWhr times 50% about 600Kwhr. So we need 5 to 6 battery changes per race. (assuming same car weight!)
The batter would be a massive thing taking up the floor and where the fuel tank would be... with best tech of 260Whrs/kg... And assuming a 120kWhr battery. That's about 460kg of battery. Not including the protective packaging itself.
Using the Rimac motors as an example of most powerful...
Put a 2X 350Kw motors side by side or in series for rear wheel drive. For 700kW total. Slightly weaker than today's power units in peak power but on the good side max torque can be had even from zero speed. Management of the massive motor torque would be interesting.
To give the tyres a hope and a prayer, maybe four wheel drive? But it might be too dangerous to put a motor in front of the driver. Maybe a metal structure or something have to be used to keep it.
Ok.. So lets stick to rear wheel drive. Say our double motors and gearbox weigh 160kg total for rear wheel drive. Thats about the weight of the current ICE coincidentally. Not counting bigger shafts needed for the torque. But cooling should be interesting. Should need less radiator. Maybe maybe not.
It means we are still about 450kg overweight. And we need five battery changes. Or five car changes?! Lol
Yeh, but apart form that it would be good ( :D )
What about a 1ltr ICE with much wider options than now and unlimited harvesting?
Or, how about the FIA say "Manufacturers, build whatever you want, just don't use more than X MJ of energy in a race." I'd say that's just as likely as fully electric or tiny engine F1 ... for now.

It'd be pricey, but it's not like the current engines aren't pricey.

Anyway, I think I'm off topic.

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214270
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Mogster wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:41 pm
214270 wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:15 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:58 am

And Honda might have a head start on that thanks to their F1 involvement. Couple that with Indy only being a two-horse race in terms of engine supplier and Honda are probably thinking they've got a good chance to "do a Mercedes" in Indy.
Pretty sensible if you ask me. They have not been able to really stamp their presence on F1, but if they can then dominate another series with what they’ve been able to learn; good for them. The Indy exposure is not a patch on F1, but maybe that’s not so relevant.
Indycar’s KERS will be a spec unit bolted onto the ICE manufacturers (almost spec) current V8T. The car is a spec Dallara. There is very little technical development in Indycar these days.
Good info 👍
Team ANTI-HYPE. Prove it, then I’ll anoint you.

tangodjango
tangodjango
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Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:38 pm

Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Another interesting article:

THE FULL STORY OF HOW McLAREN STEERED HONDA TOWARDS FAILURE - https://the-race.com/formula-1/the-mcla ... l-failure/
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

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bigblue
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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:18 am

Re: Honda leaving F1.

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tangodjango wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:44 am
Another interesting article:

THE FULL STORY OF HOW McLAREN STEERED HONDA TOWARDS FAILURE - https://the-race.com/formula-1/the-mcla ... l-failure/
Thanks, good link, some interesting insights in there that clarify the early issues.

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Juzh
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Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:45 am

Re: Honda leaving F1.

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:55 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:50 am
I miss the frozen V8 days, and I cannot believe that I just typed that...🙄
I dunno.... In the V8 days.... There was no discussion of engine performance or upgrades ("reliability") other than cold blowing and hot blowing... It was all aero talk. Engines were boring. not much difference between them... Nothing much to talk about. But these turbo Hybrids really brought back the excitement to the engine side of things. That's what I love about this era.

I would love for another engine shake up soon even sooner than 2025.
Top speed with 2022 cars which are predicted to have even more drag would be somewhere around 270 kmh on most tracks that require some downforce. Maybe even less. People just dont realise how crap those engines were power wise. Worst f1 engine ever. 2006-2008 was acceptable, but with 18k rev limit they were completely useless.

tangodjango
tangodjango
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Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:38 pm

Re: Honda leaving F1.

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bigblue wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:04 am
tangodjango wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:44 am
Another interesting article:

THE FULL STORY OF HOW McLAREN STEERED HONDA TOWARDS FAILURE - https://the-race.com/formula-1/the-mcla ... l-failure/
Thanks, good link, some interesting insights in there that clarify the early issues.
There are some technical inaccuracies such as the compressor never being entirely within the vee as suggested (this has been discussed in detail elsewhere on F1technical) but on the whole a good read.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

Zynerji
Zynerji
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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https://www.motorsportweek.com/2020/10/ ... fter-2021/

Sounds like Honda is willing to help RBR even after they leave... 😲

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El Scorchio
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:34 pm
https://www.motorsportweek.com/2020/10/ ... fter-2021/

Sounds like Honda is willing to help RBR even after they leave... 😲
Good news if so, and if it's workable.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:34 pm
https://www.motorsportweek.com/2020/10/ ... fter-2021/

Sounds like Honda is willing to help RBR even after they leave... 😲
Begs the question of how much they'll help. Would they give them engines but not have their name mentioned at all? Would they help Red Bull develop the engine with a third party? It's a heck of a thing to say "we'll help in any way we can" having just pulled out of the game. It throws up a huge number of questions and scenarios.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"