New Horizons

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: New Horizons

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Michael was really good at pushing the boundaries.
Lewis is one step behind, he stays in the grey areas. Lol.
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El Scorchio
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Re: New Horizons

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strad wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:07 pm
Phil how does that explain that modern greats like Moss and Stewart saying that Fangio was the GOAT?
Modern greats? Come on.... I wouldn't even call Prost a 'modern' great in the year 2020. I fully respect them and their opinions (Maybe Moss a little more than Stewart) but there will definitely and naturally be self interest in such declarations from them, in defending their era as the best. It'll happen with drivers from any era.

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Steven
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Re: New Horizons

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El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:24 pm
strad wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:07 pm
Phil how does that explain that modern greats like Moss and Stewart saying that Fangio was the GOAT?
Modern greats? Come on.... I wouldn't even call Prost a 'modern' great in the year 2020. I fully respect them and their opinions (Maybe Moss a little more than Stewart) but there will definitely and naturally be self interest in such declarations from them, in defending their era as the best. It'll happen with drivers from any era.
No former World Champion has anything to gain in defending their era as the best. They did what they did, and no matter what everybody else thinks about that time, it doesn't change the facts.

The truth is that they probably genuinely feel it was the best, as they experienced it first hand. They made it the best for themselves, and probably still feel the emotions when thinking back on some of their great moments.

It's more or less the same with F1 fans, when you ask them what they believe was the best era, or when F1 had the most beautiful cars. Almost always you'll end up with people looking at the first 5 to 10 years they were following the sport. Maybe here we're a bit less emotional, idk, but ask 1000 random F1 fans at the track, and you'll see that it the case.

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NathanOlder
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Re: New Horizons

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As I said in the race thread but it got lost, I think I'm right in thinking Lewis is the first driver to win a championship in 3 seperate decades ?
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Re: New Horizons

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NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:49 pm
As I said in the race thread but it got lost, I think I'm right in thinking Lewis is the first driver to win a championship in 3 seperate decades ?
yes, and I think also race win and possibly pole.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: New Horizons

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There you go. Years in the making. Prohecy fulfilled. 7WDC 94 wins and counting.

What is next?
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ringo
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Re: New Horizons

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V12-POWER wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:03 am
Lewis Hamilton might have topped up stats, but even then he’s still nowhere near the greats

To begin with he only had to beat only one or 2 drivers since 2014. Total Mercedes dominance, they dominated harder than Ferrari did in the early 2000s
You know what i find interesting is how a car is judged as more dominant than another car. It is as dominant as the driver who makes it win. I think the more accurate words to use are "faster than the competition". A faster car can be driven by a driver that does not know how to win with it. For example when Lotus came back, the Raikonen and Grosjean pairing did not do that car justice. It was to me the fastest car on the grid on average over the season. It could have won the championship in Alonso's or Hamilton's hands.
So Mercedes dominance or Ferrari's is paired to the driver's ability. You will look back and read the recorded results and say oh it won 15 races in this season! But how do you separate this from the driver? Will you look on the results and find a year with only 5 wins per season and say ah ah the driver had a less dominant car here! but how does he win the champion with such a car?
I don't think the mercedes were more dominant than Shumacher's cars. We can only can look on how much faster these car than the other cars. And correct me if i am wrong but i do remember mercedes having more challenges than ferrari with tyre temperatures and tyre wear. There were not always the faster car over the 6 years of "dominance".
He jumped in to mercedes when they were already the winning Mercedes, he didn’t make or form or structure the team like at least Schumacher did, and we can argue that Merc wouldn’t have been so successful without the input from MSC in the first place

No. Hamilton went to Mercedes in 2013. And that car was by no means dominant. That car won at tracks Hamilton was exceptional at; Hungary etc. The car was able to take pole but it was not able to stay ahead of redbull or ferrari.
Hamilton went to that team and contributed his experience and know how from Mclaren's performance engineering to do a lot for Mercedes braking systems, steering wheels ect. I remember he was very proud of the contributions he would make to the team.
have a read: https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/54773618
"When Lewis turned up we knew he was going to be phenomenally quick," said chief engineer Andrew Shovlin. "But perhaps our misconceptions were that we didn't think he was necessarily going to be able to lead the team from a car development point of view.

"Often he would refer to feelings and things that were going on in the car that if you were looking at them in a strict engineering 'I know best, I'm an engineer' sense, you would think he was talking rubbish.

"But what he was actually feeling, while he may not have always described it in the right way, his ability to pick up on something that is not right - with the car's vehicle dynamics, aerodynamics, his sense for what the car was doing - was incredible.

"And it was very early on that you learned to ignore him at your peril, because if he was telling you something wasn't right, you had to be pretty certain of your own facts, otherwise you could end up looking a bit silly down the line.

"We might be one of the most successful teams in recent history, or for consecutive championships. But it would be arrogant to suggest that result would be the same if Lewis hadn't made the decision to come and join this team.

"The question of how much is the car and how much is the driver is missing the point. It's about getting the right group of people together if you want sustained success.

"Winning consecutive championships is about getting all those ingredients right, and Lewis has definitely played a big part in getting that balance right within the team."
The only driver who managed to beat him at “home” retired right away. (The story of it being too tough mentally still sounds a bit like a fairy tale)
Well Nico did a very good job at take advantage of the opportunities. Lewis to me was faster and still superior with race pace. Where Lewis underperformed is the race starts. A new clutch procedure was introduced by the FIA; and Rosberg ensured to be on top of that and most of the times this resulted in him getting the better starts and better strategy. Lewis decided to work on this too late into the championship. But even with that he still managed to outrace and finished ahead of Rosberg. But what can you do if your teammate has better reliability? And let's not forget that Hamilton dominated Rosberg three times before 2016. So not sure what this statement is about. And it was Rosberg's home; being a german driver in a team 3 years before Hamilton.
They also got the perfect n2 driver after Rosberg which is bottas
Well, Bottas is not a No.2 driver. What is happening is there is less interference to help him beat Hamilton compared to Rosberg's time. Nico was coached on Hamilton's telemetry by Mercedes. I think they felt they owe it to Nico who was in the team longer, and also was German to win him a championship. The team learned after Nico left that it's best to manage their drivers fairly. And Bottas is now in that environment. So in fact i think it is generally more dificult for Bottas to beat Hamilton that it was for Rosberg in terms of getting a helping hand from the team.
His whole image is only getting darker and darker the more he mixes political/religious beliefs with F1

I mean, objectively speaking, he got a lucky strike that nobody will ever have again

Topped up stats but still far away from the greats. He does get away with that clownish style of his because F1 is much more of a mainstream thing
Interesting opinion. There are too many skillful drives against strong competition historically for me to agree with this.
For example, Montoya arguably never beat anybody, but he was a character indeed, Alonso is another modern example
Ok. Alonso is a great talent. Hamilton is more talented based on their time together; and also some other things observed with their driving. Wet weather driving is one. But i believe Alonso and Hamilton are the two best of their times. Alonso may have lost his edge now though.
Hamilton will undoubtedly be remembered, it’s just that nobody would think of him had he decided to go somewhere else than Mercedes
Well what if Senna never went to Mclaren? Shumacher never went to Ferrari or Benneton and stayed with Jordan?
This is also aside from the certain fakeness in current F1 that makes it unwatchable. The press, the racing and the teams, it does feel like a tv show sadly
Fake media!! MAGA!! :lol:
I think F-1 is the same. Also Liberty is doing a much "realer"job than the Bernie era.
For Sure!!

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NathanOlder
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Re: New Horizons

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Jolle wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:34 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:49 pm
As I said in the race thread but it got lost, I think I'm right in thinking Lewis is the first driver to win a championship in 3 seperate decades ?
yes, and I think also race win and possibly pole.
Oh yeah, I honestly thought Piquet won in the 70's but having just looked, he didnt.

I guess Seb is the biggest threat to the wins and pole over 3 decades.
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ringo
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Re: New Horizons

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If Redbull or Ferrari dont build a championship car then i think Hamilton will retire from boredom. He wont have a target to chase. The 2022 regs couldnt come soon enough.

What i don't see him beating is Shumacher's fastest laps record. Also there is a record by Jim Clarke? for most grandslams. He can possibly get that one.

Otherwise a driver in his position really does not have anything else to do. At most he can cement his legacy further and kill Vertappen's and Leclerc's time to make it harder for them to achieve his records.

Max is now in the sport 6 years? it's quite amazing. He pretty much is a very experienced driver for his age. I do wonder how much longer will he drive in F-1 and with which teams. I cannot see him at redbull for another 4 years.
There will also come a time when Newey will simply run out of steam.

Leclerc i beleive will overtake Max as the next challenger to Hamilton. He seems to have the right attitude and humility to galvanize Ferrari.

I can imagine these two fighting Lewis to end his era. At some point they will be much faster and sharper than him and have similar level of enlightenment towards running a race weekend. It should be interesting.

Lewis will be under a type of pressure that he has never experienced before. Being the older guy with less energy, less bravery, and grit than the competition.
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Shrieker
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Re: New Horizons

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By winning his 10th gp this season, Hamilton has bettered his personal best from 2014 - which was 11/19 (%57.9). His current for this season is 10/17 already (%58.9); assuming he doesn't win anymore.

If he wins all of the remaining 3 races, he'll break another record to become the most successful driver over a season. Both Schumacher and Vettel have won 13 races previously, but both had one more race to do it (18) compared to 17 this year.
Last edited by Shrieker on Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Shrieker
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Re: New Horizons

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ringo wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:08 pm
Lewis will be under a type of pressure that he has never experienced before. Being the older guy with less energy, less bravery, and grit than the competition.
I think looking at Raikkonen, Hamilton will do just fine into his early forties at the very least. He looks after himself better than Kimi does too AFAIK. I would go for unbeatable records if I was him. Why not.
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ringo
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Re: New Horizons

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Shrieker wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:52 pm
By winning his 10th gp this season, Hamilton has bettered his personal best from 2014 - which was 11/19 (%57.9). His current for this season is 10/17 already (%58.9); assuming he doesn't win anymore.

If he wins all of the remaining 3 races, he'll break another record to become the most successful driver over a season. Both Schumacher and Vettel have won 13 races previously, but both had one more race to do it (18) compared to 17 this year.
There will be gnashing of teeth if he does win the remaining three. I am a fan, but i would like to see him get some pressure to add some spice to the season. I do understand why his detractors are in pain now. Sometimes his success gets tiring; but i am all for it.
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NathanOlder
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Re: New Horizons

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Bahrain outter should be hard. I know they wont, but I'd love to see the Bahrain Outter to have 3 DRS Zones! and decent length zones too. The championships are done, so it wont really mess with that. Having 3 long zones will create a proper DRS Train! Anyone could win!!
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Shrieker
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Re: New Horizons

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ringo wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:07 pm

There will be gnashing of teeth if he does win the remaining three. I am a fan, but i would like to see him get some pressure to add some spice to the season. I do understand why his detractors are in pain now. Sometimes his success gets tiring; but i am all for it.
Well you could say his best wins are when he was challenged :D Yes runaway wins make me sleepy too. If he gets challenged but still wins, then kudos, and who can blame him.
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Shrieker
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Re: New Horizons

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:46 pm
Bahrain outter should be hard. I know they wont, but I'd love to see the Bahrain Outter to have 3 DRS Zones! and decent length zones too. The championships are done, so it wont really mess with that. Having 3 long zones will create a proper DRS Train! Anyone could win!!
Yes yes ! I'm all for it !!
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
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