Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Hoffman900
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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The FIA, and F1 for that matter, as sophisticated as they think they are and for all the smart people in it, they really sometimes miss the basics of running a race just make things overly complicated for no good reason.

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Juzh
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Just use sensible limits and I don't see a problem. I think FIA handled it fine in portimao. That white line at T1 was a complete and utter joke of a "track limit" at 200+ kmh, same in turn 4. After they relaxed those limits to be the at the kerbing it made much more sense. The whole track limits issue is overblown massively.

They even relaxed it from FP to quali in imola, did they not? Otherwise this final lap from hamilton would be deleted, as they were in FP1. Another sensible decision by the fia IMO.
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yelistener
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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There wouldn't be a track-limit problem had there not been a trend since 2017, a trend that FIA kept adding kerbs to the corners, for replacing either gravel or grass (or tarmac with different friction). Those were supposed to keep the cars from driving off, so track limit has never been an issue. FIA never had to worry about it, but since they were replaced by kerbs that cars could run on, track limit suddenly became an issue.

Put the gravel back. It's simple as that. They actually did this at Luffield Silverstone in 2019. Pre-2019 they could run beyond the white line and FIA did nothing. FIA of cause wasn't fond of that, so instead of stating the track limit, they chose to simply put the gravel closer to the white line, and the result was excellent. No need to waste time and manwork for monitoring that corner and deleting laps. Every driver repected the track limit by default.

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subcritical71
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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yelistener wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:22 pm
There wouldn't be a track-limit problem had there not been a trend since 2017, a trend that FIA kept adding kerbs to the corners, for replacing either gravel or grass (or tarmac with different friction). Those were supposed to keep the cars from driving off, so track limit has never been an issue. FIA never had to worry about it, but since they were replaced by kerbs that cars could run on, track limit suddenly became an issue.

Put the gravel back. It's simple as that. They actually did this at Luffield Silverstone in 2019. Pre-2019 they could run beyond the white line and FIA did nothing. FIA of cause wasn't fond of that, so instead of stating the track limit, they chose to simply put the gravel closer to the white line, and the result was excellent. No need to waste time and manwork for monitoring that corner and deleting laps. Every driver repected the track limit by default.

https://i.imgur.com/B3K1fSj.jpeg
I've wondered why this isn't a more common approach. Another thought would be could a strip of gravel between two paved surfaces be implemented if a deceleration zone is warranted? This would ensure a penalty for exceeding for the casual offense but yield the safety sought in an out of control scenario.

Hoffman900
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Brundle said the FIA working group of former drivers have pretty much made the suggestion of putting grass and gravel back in spots.

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strad
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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+1 =D>
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ESPImperium
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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My solution is simple, the kerbs should be 1.5 meters deep. No more, no less. They also need to be mechanically easy for the first half of that, then beyond that, brutal, car breakers with high resonance, suspension breakers, gear box failures and bodywork flying brutal.

Then after 1.5 meters, gravel or natural grass. Gravel is preferable, however if its grass, it needs to have grass pavers to keep the grass from churning, and also to give a little slipperiness for another couple of meters. Something like these:

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Then you can have all the tarmac, concrete you want for Moto GP and other formula.

Id also look at the paints uses as well, there is paint that comes with a high abrasion finish, the further you go off, the more abrasion to the tyres, the more life that gets killed from them.

We need solutions with available tech, we are not in the invention of the wheel to police this, deterrents available are better than a cure.

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Sieper
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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It is never easy. Cars can get trapped in gravel. SC. Waiting 30 mins for them to recover etc. Kerbs can launch cars, or simply brake them. Even If this small winglets that can kill a race, like what probably happened to Max today, tire cut from winglets lost earlier in the race. The gravel in Silverstone is a perfect addition. Just look per race per year and finetune. 2020 cars are different beasts than 2015.
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jjn9128
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Reigniting this thread.

What about using the transponder with off track sensors, like the formula e attack boost activation. Next year there’s meant to be a light panel on the wheel covers so you could have a visual flash to show fans when a driver’s gone off. 3x and a penalty is applied.
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El Scorchio
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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jjn9128 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:26 pm
Reigniting this thread.

What about using the transponder with off track sensors, like the formula e attack boost activation. Next year there’s meant to be a light panel on the wheel covers so you could have a visual flash to show fans when a driver’s gone off. 3x and a penalty is applied.
It's a good idea which makes it crystal clear- provided it works faultlessly on all cars 100% of the time. Otherwise it could even make the situation less clear than it is now. You'd also still have to have the stewards/race director use their discretion and override the system if they feel someone is pushed wide by another car and goes over the limit through no fault of their own. Could be very confusing/counter productive for viewers if they see the flash but then it's discounted afterwards.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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jjn9128 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:26 pm
Reigniting this thread.

What about using the transponder with off track sensors, like the formula e attack boost activation. Next year there’s meant to be a light panel on the wheel covers so you could have a visual flash to show fans when a driver’s gone off. 3x and a penalty is applied.
How about a version of Hawkeye? Hawkeye, for those that don't know, is a camera based system that tracks (and can predict) the travel of tennis and cricket balls. If it can accurately track a tennis ball at over 100mph, it ought to be able to track a car. It's used in cricket and tennis to see whether a ball is in a certain position e.g. on a line. Seeing whether a tyre is over a line ought to be simple enough. Hawkeye doesn't require sensors on the track, using just carefully placed cameras and clever software. Have everyone sign up to accept the decisions of the system and that takes the race director etc. out of the picture.
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El Scorchio
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:44 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:26 pm
Reigniting this thread.

What about using the transponder with off track sensors, like the formula e attack boost activation. Next year there’s meant to be a light panel on the wheel covers so you could have a visual flash to show fans when a driver’s gone off. 3x and a penalty is applied.
How about a version of Hawkeye? Hawkeye, for those that don't know, is a camera based system that tracks (and can predict) the travel of tennis and cricket balls. If it can accurately track a tennis ball at over 100mph, it ought to be able to track a car. It's used in cricket and tennis to see whether a ball is in a certain position e.g. on a line. Seeing whether a tyre is over a line ought to be simple enough. Hawkeye doesn't require sensors on the track, using just carefully placed cameras and clever software. Have everyone sign up to accept the decisions of the system and that takes the race director etc. out of the picture.
That could work, and hawkeye is very accurate (down to millimetres for tennis) although I wonder if the speed of the cars, or a line of cars coming past all at once could cause it problems.

Hoffman900
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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This all seems like an overly complicated solution, with the ability for glitches and misinterpretation, for what a strip of grass did really well.

This is partly how the FIA gets themselves in these messes anyway. They overly complicate everything. They want tracks to invest in technology (price tag?), teams too, and add a few more pages to the rule book inadvertently creating grey areas to be exploited, then we’re back in this mess again.

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jjn9128
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:04 pm
This all seems like an overly complicated solution, with the ability for glitches and misinterpretation, for what a strip of grass did really well.

This is partly how the FIA gets themselves in these messes anyway. They overly complicate everything. They want tracks to invest in technology (price tag?), teams too, and add a few more pages to the rule book...
Lots of series have to use tracks. Plus grass gets cut up and needs replacing. An expense promoters won’t want.
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Hoffman900
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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jjn9128 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:12 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:04 pm
This all seems like an overly complicated solution, with the ability for glitches and misinterpretation, for what a strip of grass did really well.

This is partly how the FIA gets themselves in these messes anyway. They overly complicate everything. They want tracks to invest in technology (price tag?), teams too, and add a few more pages to the rule book...
Lots of series have to use tracks. Plus grass gets cut up and needs replacing. An expense promoters won’t want.
In the States, very few tracks have large paved runoff areas. It works just fine for all series (2 and 4). Sod is cheap too...

If I wanted to watch parking lot autocross racing, I would just pop over to the local SCCA event.