Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Just_a_fan
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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SiLo wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:02 pm

It's hard to physically add things to the outside of the corners because of moto gp. It's just not safe for them. I agree though something could be added that gets removed after the weekend to go back to normal.
Easy enough to put a line of big polystyrene (or other "safe" material) blocks around the outside of the track in places like T4 at Bahrain. Wouldn't need much other than a simple anchor to stop them blowing away. Car exceeds track limits, it rubs/hits the block. Obvious to all and in minor misdemeanours it will slow the car. In an "off" the blocks won't create a nasty risk to the driver in the crashing car. If a block gets damaged/moved aside by a car, a quick VSC to put a new one back in place. Job done.

In effect you make a street circuit barrier but in a safe manner.
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El Scorchio
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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DChemTech wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:06 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:50 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:35 pm
But then the question is again, how to quantify - where to draw the line. Any exceptions invite subjectivity.
This is 100% the crux of it. There are always exceptions that need the human eye to judge it given the myriad of situations that occur in a race.
Any sort of sensor will just register a car too wide, but offer no context for why it's there. At the end of the day, flashing light or no flashing light and all the technology in the world, it will always have to come down to steward/race director's judgement.
well, yes, but that's why I would go for 'take the sensor unless there is a reason not to' (such as avoiding an accident). That would remove more controversy than the other way around - most of the discussions are "driver X was going consistently wide in turn Y" - and there the sensor data should be just fine.
The race director or whoever still has to look every time the sensor goes off to deduce why it went off. All this does is alert them that someone has. They still need to make a call on every case, so in effect it changes nothing aside from it may flag a few close ones that the naked eye could miss.

And, as you're obviously referring to yesterday, there is no controversy about anyone going 'wide' constantly at a corner- I think we both know what you're talking about- seen as it was not against any rule to do so at that corner.

So it's a totally different issue with setting the rules and track limits in general, rather than a specific driver or car supposedly flouting a non existent one. The other more bothersome issue is them changing the rule halfway through the race, after allowing it for practice but then not qualifying, but then allowing it again for the race. But that's the sort of brainless thing I've come to expect from them over the years.

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subcritical71
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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BrunoH wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:00 pm
Verstappen got stolen and thats it! its a double standard, if he was to keep it inside hamilton wold push him wide andcrash into him
I would hope that rules interpretations are not left to which driver is said interpreters favorite but what you are describing is race craft.
Tizz wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:47 pm
If they just would have warned Hammi, no cheating would have taken place and no penalty necessary. It is such a horrible management.
When a rule is subject to the discretion of the race director and the actions are allowed by the race director -> by definition it is not cheating. This is what I don't like. Anything with the word discretion in it is just ripe for controversy.

Its really quite simple in my mind but probably full of holes in reality, but if you go off and you have a sector (or mini-sector) faster than your slowest sector (mini-sector) by staying on track then you have gained an advantage. First hole is, how do you determine the slowest 'normal' lap.. what if you were impeded in a corner, exit, debris, warmup, cooldown, etc.

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Shrieker
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Remember this bit of fabric all the way back from 2012 ? :)

I'm gonna give T4 Bahrain since it's the most recent example. Put this fabric in there, glue it down properly, sprinkle it with some water before every session.

Rinse, repeat for every corner on the calendar that drivers wanna extend and gain an advantage. They'll be free to go there, but they will lose time if they do, by mistake or not.

Problem solved.
Last edited by Shrieker on Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DChemTech
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:25 pm
seen as it was not against any rule to do so at that corner.
Well -this- is the controversy in my view. Whether or not it is allowed to go wide should not be decided per corner. It should not be allowed anywhere, period. But the stewards probably do not have the capacity to check all track limits by eye continuously, hence you need a sensor that signals a violation, and accept the reading of the sensor unless there is a clear reason not to. And no, it's not specifically a question that came up yesterday. We've seen it before - e.g. Austin 2017, when Max was penalized for passing Kimi outside of the track in a corner where everyone was going wide (but not penalized when it wasn't an overtake).

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Tizz
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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subcritical71 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:31 pm
When a rule is subject to the discretion of the race director and the actions are allowed by the race director -> by definition it is not cheating. This is what I don't like. Anything with the word discretion in it is just ripe for controversy.
Nonsense. By that line of arguing a bankrobbery is not a crime if you don't get caught. The definiton of cheating is according to Merriam-Webster "violating the rules dishonestly". I don't see any race-director or any other form of judge in that definition.

Jolle
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Just put a load of passive beakons at the corners and a sensor in the middle of the car. If you pass the line, your ERS is downtuned for a couple of seconds.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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DChemTech wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:39 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:25 pm
seen as it was not against any rule to do so at that corner.
Well -this- is the controversy in my view. Whether or not it is allowed to go wide should not be decided per corner. It should not be allowed anywhere, period. But the stewards probably do not have the capacity to check all track limits by eye continuously, hence you need a sensor that signals a violation, and accept the reading of the sensor unless there is a clear reason not to. And no, it's not specifically a question that came up yesterday. We've seen it before - e.g. Austin 2017, when Max was penalized for passing Kimi outside of the track in a corner where everyone was going wide (but not penalized when it wasn't an overtake).
But that 2017 isn't controversial either. Going wide but not while overtaking is a different thing to going wide when overtaking. I understand you're annoyed Max didn't win the race but the rules were applied correctly all through the race yesterday, both before and after they stupidly changed the rule for that corner mid race. Just because you're unhappy with how the race panned out doesn't mean there was any fault or evidence of anything unfair happening. We've seen it countless times and its affected ALL the drivers on the grid at one time or another.

I agree with you that there should be a consistent rule for EVERY spot of EVERY track and IMO, I would use the white lines as gospel and you shouldn't go outside of them. But having sensors or not doesn't change the fact it'll always come down to the eye of a human to judge whether it's someone doing it on purpose to gain an advantage or not, or that someone had no option but to cross the line and a warning isn't applicable. You can be sure that anything the race directors may not spot, another driver or team will report it over the radio anyway to bring their attention to it and get it looked at.

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jjn9128
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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F1 cars are a finite width place the sensors 1m outside of the white line and you have a solution. Of course that depends on the positional accuracy of the transponder. There obviously has to be an element of common sense if a car is forced off track - if the computer the fia uses to report to teams during the race pings an off track teams can appeal if there's force measure. Onus is then on teams to query rather than have an fia official constantly watching each problem corner. 3-5 jokers allows for mistakes but penalises systematic rule breaking.

This makes it black and white rather than having the issue of watching cameras or having to draw lines like VAR in football. Was it Verstappen in Turkey who escaped penalty on the pit exit line because it couldn't be proven from the onboard where the rear axle was?!
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DChemTech
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:52 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:39 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:25 pm
seen as it was not against any rule to do so at that corner.
Well -this- is the controversy in my view. Whether or not it is allowed to go wide should not be decided per corner. It should not be allowed anywhere, period. But the stewards probably do not have the capacity to check all track limits by eye continuously, hence you need a sensor that signals a violation, and accept the reading of the sensor unless there is a clear reason not to. And no, it's not specifically a question that came up yesterday. We've seen it before - e.g. Austin 2017, when Max was penalized for passing Kimi outside of the track in a corner where everyone was going wide (but not penalized when it wasn't an overtake).
But that 2017 isn't controversial either. Going wide but not while overtaking is a different thing to going wide when overtaking. I understand you're annoyed Max didn't win the race but the rules were applied correctly all through the race yesterday, both before and after they stupidly changed the rule for that corner mid race. Just because you're unhappy with how the race panned out doesn't mean there was any fault or evidence of anything unfair happening. We've seen it countless times and its affected ALL the drivers on the grid at one time or another.

I agree with you that there should be a consistent rule for EVERY spot of EVERY track and IMO, I would use the white lines as gospel and you shouldn't go outside of them. But having sensors or not doesn't change the fact it'll always come down to the eye of a human to judge whether it's someone doing it on purpose to gain an advantage or not, or that someone had no option but to cross the line and a warning isn't applicable. You can be sure that anything the race directors may not spot, another driver or team will report it over the radio anyway to bring their attention to it and get it looked at.
Not saying the decision to penalize Max there is controversial. What was controversial to me then, and what is now, is that everyone was continuously allowed to go wide without being penalized when they were not overtaking - while they were definitely gaining an advantage. I don't give a rats ass whether Max won the race or not. Sure, I'm Dutch and hence I tend to remember decisions where Max was involved more than others, and at first reaction I am more upset if he is affected negatively - but in the long run, if the decision is fair, it's fair. In this case Max did not win, and might not have won if the T4 track limit was consistently applied either. That's OK. But I want whoever wins to be on merit of the teams/drivers, and not due to ambiguity on the side of the stewards - and in particular, the ambiguity that some corners are monitored, and some are not (that in this case it was changed half the race makes it worse, but it's not the main issue in my view).

kptaylor
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Yep, agree with DChemTech. If running wide is okay then that piece of runoff effectively becomes part of the track. If it's part of the track then it can be used by running wide or by overtaking. If it's not okay for overtaking it shouldn't be used for running wide to smooth out a corner or for carrying more speed through a corner than you would by adhering to track limits. An advantage is an advantage any way you evaluate it.

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Phil
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Again: the race director was very clear prior to the race that that corner would not be policed. Half way through the race, they changed that (most likely due to Horners radio comments to Max). As a result he stopped doing it. Even if it had happened again - it’s not something that is usually penalized immediately. First you get an official warning, then you may be punished. It never got to the state that a black/white flag was issued. Norhing contriversal about it.
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DChemTech
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Phil wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:29 pm
Again: the race director was very clear prior to the race that that corner would not be policed. Half way through the race, they changed that (most likely due to Horners radio comments to Max). As a result he stopped doing it. Even if it had happened again - it’s not something that is usually penalized immediately. First you get an official warning, then you may be punished. It never got to the state that a black/white flag was issued. Norhing contriversal about it.
Again: " the race director was very clear prior to the race that that corner would not be policed" is the part I have a problem with. All corners should be policed. Otherwise, you can just as well get rid of the lines.

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proteus
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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DChemTech wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:33 pm
Phil wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:29 pm
Again: the race director was very clear prior to the race that that corner would not be policed. Half way through the race, they changed that (most likely due to Horners radio comments to Max). As a result he stopped doing it. Even if it had happened again - it’s not something that is usually penalized immediately. First you get an official warning, then you may be punished. It never got to the state that a black/white flag was issued. Norhing contriversal about it.
Again: " the race director was very clear prior to the race that that corner would not be policed" is the part I have a problem with. All corners should be policed. Otherwise, you can just as well get rid of the lines.
Yes, i agree with this. What is the point of a corner and a cerb, if everyone drive where they want? The other problem are again these tarmac runoff areas. Lewis did a fundamentla mistake and drove off track and simply rejoined without losing too much time. If there would be gravel or grass he would have much harder job to rejoin and Max would almost certanly slip past him. And everybody cheers how awesome job Lewis did with his win - How it is awesome if he did a mistake and drove off the track, and he cut the corner 29 times during the race?

Am i really that stupid to think of this as problematic? The race control jet again have no clear direction and capabilities to run this sport properly...noone should be allowed to drive over the limits of the corner. It should be that simple. These guys are among the best in the world in what they do, and jet i am supposed to believe they cant drive trough the corner properly without getting over the line?
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Tizz
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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It is remarkable how many people seem to know what exactly has been said at the drivers briefing.