Different drivers championship format

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sp8472
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Re: Different drivers championship format

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I was not advocating for a spec series. The constructors that win today would also win in the suggested format. What attracts me to F1 is the cars and the technology involved. I do not want to see this stifled by a spec series.

And I do not deny that there will be an element of luck as to which car a driver gets at which racetrack at what point in the year. The same goes for mechanical failures and such. But there is always a certain level of much when it comes to mechanical failures. I drivers and cars are drawn at the start of the year, at least then everyone has the same ‘luck’ when it come to getting the right car for the right track.

But it is undeniable how exciting to see Russell driving a Merc. Imagine seeing Hamilton in a Renault one week and a Ferrari the next. It also opens the potential that at some point in the season we would see Hamilton and Max in the same team driving the same cars.

I know that this is unrealistic in reality for a host of reasons. But i think it would be awesome to see. It would be a true drivers championship. The driver who wins would have done the best job over the year in all cars. Yes they may have been lucky being in the right car at the right track once or twice. But they also would have been in the wrong car at the wrong track at some point in the year too.


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El Scorchio
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Re: Different drivers championship format

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raymondu999 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:06 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:26 pm
No. I didn’t say or imply he’d win every race regardless of what car he’s in, and you full well know that.
No, I don’t. Because the way you wroded it, to me, sounded like you were. But to clarify then — you mean “hamilton would still win” as in the title, not all the individual races necessarily?
Yup. If they ran a season like that with all things equal, I believe Hamilton would still be champion.

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raymondu999
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Re: Different drivers championship format

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El Scorchio wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:04 am
raymondu999 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:06 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:26 pm
No. I didn’t say or imply he’d win every race regardless of what car he’s in, and you full well know that.
No, I don’t. Because the way you wroded it, to me, sounded like you were. But to clarify then — you mean “hamilton would still win” as in the title, not all the individual races necessarily?
Yup. If they ran a season like that with all things equal, I believe Hamilton would still be champion.
No no that’s fair. You’re of course entitled to your opinion. I was just saying that the way I read your first post (ie Hamilton would win [all the races] anyway) was somewhat ludicrous
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henry
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Re: Different drivers championship format

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I would like to see something like this. It would give more weight to both the WCC and WDC.

Given the pressures on F1 it would potentially generate much more fan and media interest. The speculation of how driver A would perform in car X at each circuit would liven things up. This week’s speculation around Russell being an example.

The likelihood is that the WCC championship would be more clear cut than the WDC. In most sports the difference between top athletes is small, I would expect the point scoring difference between the top several drivers would be very small whereas today the difference is amplified by the car.

It would, necessarily, change the design of the cars making them more universal in their characteristics rather than tailored to individual drivers. This is possibly a more difficult task for the engineering team with a broader range of parameters to optimise. More worthy of the title WCC in my opinion. It might highlight whether the Red Bull is a good car, or not.

I can’t agree that the best teams and drivers always meld. Ask Alonso, or Perez, or LeClerc, or for that matter Verstappen.

As for the luck of the circuit. That would be less influential than the luck of being in the best, or not best, car for several seasons.

This same topic was discussed back in 2015. For those interested here’s a link. https://www.f1technical.net/forum/view ... 70#p605270
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joshuagore
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Re: Different drivers championship format

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sp8472 wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:17 am
I was not advocating for a spec series. The constructors that win today would also win in the suggested format. What attracts me to F1 is the cars and the technology involved. I do not want to see this stifled by a spec series.

And I do not deny that there will be an element of luck as to which car a driver gets at which racetrack at what point in the year. The same goes for mechanical failures and such. But there is always a certain level of much when it comes to mechanical failures. I drivers and cars are drawn at the start of the year, at least then everyone has the same ‘luck’ when it come to getting the right car for the right track.

But it is undeniable how exciting to see Russell driving a Merc. Imagine seeing Hamilton in a Renault one week and a Ferrari the next. It also opens the potential that at some point in the season we would see Hamilton and Max in the same team driving the same cars.

I know that this is unrealistic in reality for a host of reasons. But i think it would be awesome to see. It would be a true drivers championship. The driver who wins would have done the best job over the year in all cars. Yes they may have been lucky being in the right car at the right track once or twice. But they also would have been in the wrong car at the wrong track at some point in the year too.


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I think this sounds like a good show but I question whether it is a good reflection of real life and competition. The world requires you often be at the right place at the right time, and often it requires you to spend years with zero results to get great results, and yet others get lucky, or pay to be lucky, i.e. life isn't fair. All of these things are seen in the storyline of racing. It also so happens these things coincide with what it might take to develop a car, which may take seasons to do, and then yet more time to respond to upgrades, and some might do that better than others. How do I care as much about Russel if I see him bouncing around and I barely get a metric on if its car or driver, or if he can develop long lasting working relationships required to dominate, and not just win a few races. I think the narrative of racing should reflect the narratives of life to attract the largest audiences. Hero's without villain's, salt without sweet, I think things become generic real quick.

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nevill3
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Re: Different drivers championship format

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raymondu999 wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:33 am


No no that’s fair. You’re of course entitled to your opinion. I was just saying that the way I read your first post (ie Hamilton would win [all the races] anyway) was somewhat ludicrous
The first quote, when read with regard to the topic title, clearly is meant to imply that Lewis would win the WDC not every race at every weekend.
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Big Tea
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Re: Different drivers championship format

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before thing were as clinical as they are today there used to be a Christmas event where several champions form different areas drove cars and were compared to eachother. Don,t recall the name of the series, but I remember Coulthard beating Vettel.
It would be nice to see an up dated version of this
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El Scorchio
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Re: Different drivers championship format

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raymondu999 wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:33 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:04 am
raymondu999 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:06 pm


No, I don’t. Because the way you wroded it, to me, sounded like you were. But to clarify then — you mean “hamilton would still win” as in the title, not all the individual races necessarily?
Yup. If they ran a season like that with all things equal, I believe Hamilton would still be champion.
No no that’s fair. You’re of course entitled to your opinion. I was just saying that the way I read your first post (ie Hamilton would win [all the races] anyway) was somewhat ludicrous
Oh no absolutely not! That would be ridiculous. I think barring freakish bad luck or retirements for anyone, the WDC at the end of such a championship would look pretty similar to now, with a few outliers. Bottas a little lower, some of the young drivers maybe a little higher.

I’ve always wanted all the drivers to have a go kart race every year. I reckon that would be loads of fun.

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henry
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Re: Different drivers championship format

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The Sakhir race race highlighted three aspects of this proposal.

1. Russell’s performance emphasised the significance of car performance.

2. The Mercedes tyre woes highlighted a major difficulty for strategy calls if two drivers in the same cars want the same strategy. Drivers in the same cars often run very close for most of the race, separating them for tyre changes would be problematic.

3. The joy experienced by Perez was good to see and extremely rare relying, as it usually does, on errors by the team(s) with the faster cars. Personally I’d like to see more equitable sharing of the joy.
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El Scorchio
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Re: Different drivers championship format

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henry wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:07 am
The Sakhir race race highlighted three aspects of this proposal.

1. Russell’s performance emphasised the significance of car performance.

2. The Mercedes tyre woes highlighted a major difficulty for strategy calls if two drivers in the same cars want the same strategy. Drivers in the same cars often run very close for most of the race, separating them for tyre changes would be problematic.

3. The joy experienced by Perez was good to see and extremely rare relying, as it usually does, on errors by the team(s) with the faster cars. Personally I’d like to see more equitable sharing of the joy.
There's definitely the upside of things like Perez winning (and Gasly earlier in the year which was wonderful), but then on the flipside the gross 'unfairness' of it if that was Russell's 'go' in the Mercedes, then through no fault of his own his championship hopes are over in that one race and he's no chance to ever make up the points gap because he's never in that car again. Basically if it's your turn in the Mercedes and there's a mechanical, a strategy blunder or someone tags you and damages the car, it's all done and dusted for you.

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henry
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Re: Different drivers championship format

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Good point @El Scorchio. However, the situation is made worse by the points scoring system. The non-linear points system would put a high premium on maximising the turns in the fastest cars. In Bottas’ and Russell’s case they lost between 15 and 23 points due to circumstances outside their control. In a linear, point per place, system they would only have lost 7 or 8 points. If the points system covered all finishers they would need only finish a cumulative total total of 7 or 8 places higher than whoever won that race over the other 19 races in the other cars.

This year only 2 drivers had any chance of winning the WDC and were it not for bad luck those two drivers would have secured first and second several races ago. (The ordering would take a little longer). That’s also a case of done and dusted with zero opportunity for the others to respond.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

smellybeard
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Re: Different drivers championship format

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The AI tools are there that could create a team handicapping system and anyone could apply that to the finishing positions to create their own 'corrected drivers championship'.

Hoffman900
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Re: Different drivers championship format

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Emmo going at it with two NASCAR drivers. The NASCAR boys wrote the book on bump drafting:

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El Scorchio
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Re: Different drivers championship format

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henry wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:56 pm
Good point @El Scorchio. However, the situation is made worse by the points scoring system. The non-linear points system would put a high premium on maximising the turns in the fastest cars. In Bottas’ and Russell’s case they lost between 15 and 23 points due to circumstances outside their control. In a linear, point per place, system they would only have lost 7 or 8 points. If the points system covered all finishers they would need only finish a cumulative total total of 7 or 8 places higher than whoever won that race over the other 19 races in the other cars.

This year only 2 drivers had any chance of winning the WDC and were it not for bad luck those two drivers would have secured first and second several races ago. (The ordering would take a little longer). That’s also a case of done and dusted with zero opportunity for the others to respond.
Very true- a different points system just like one you've outlined there would maybe be a very interesting proposition if there were ever a season like this. Definitely mitigates some damage from any 'bad luck' scenarios. Not to mention the championship would probably go right to the wire.

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diffuser
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Re: Different drivers championship format

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:22 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:08 am
Or just have a spec series. That would save a lot of messing around.

When you look back, the best guys generally did well in every series they raced in. That's not a coincidence.
Exactly.

The best drivers are in the best cars, George is just in the waiting... does everyone forget he is a former F2 and GP3 Champ against really stout fields? I think there are 6-8 guys who could win in the Mercedes, but win like Bottas wins. They would not dominate like Lewis has.

The best drivers get the best gear / teams applies to all of sports. It's no different than Tiger Woods getting the best golf clubs, Tom Brady playing on the Patriots (NFL), etc. Success begets success.

Even then, spec series or pseudo spec series are still dominated by the same drivers and teams. Jimmy Johnson won NASCAR Championships with Hendrick Motorsports from 2006-2010 - arguably NASCAR's peak in terms of dollars and field competitiveness. Scott Dixon has won 6 Indy Car Championships. The field spread is less, but it's all for show, and the grid is set based on talent and team talent.

I've been involved in a few spec series. Unshockingly, the same teams and drivers are always at the front. That's life.

That isn't true. Perez is case and point. He's in the top 50% of the drivers but will not be in any car next year..... Brady is Brady cause of Belichick. If Brady would have ended up on the Lions, he would have long been retired by now.

I would agree that "Generally, the cream rises to the top", Unfortunately alot of it just goes sour. The rules in F1 todate have helped skew driver ability. Making driver comparisons difficult.

It would be interesting to see what teams use to compare drivers ability. In reality Albon can have a quicker reaction time than Max but if Albon is not capable of adjusting his mindset to drive the RB the way it needs to be driven to get the most out it, what use is that reaction time? How do you measure that ability?