Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

[hollus]

This thread started to discuss whether it is the car that allows F1 stars to get into multiyear championship runs. Or not, of course. And whether those F1 starts contribute to create that environment or not.
It started on the context of a few records being tied/surpassed by a certain Hamilton.

Of course it is a thread about Hamilton! (And Vettel and Schumi and others that might have had similar runs).

Seriously, don't come to a Hamilton thread to complain that Hamilton's victories are being discussed.
When Hamilton invades other threads, it is a different story, but this thread was created, literally, to discuss Hamilton's victories in the context of the team/championship environments.

I am pretty sure in soccer forums, Pele, Maradona, Ronaldo and Messi are discussed ad-nauseam too. It is normal.

That said, please, don't extend Hamilton talk into every other thread. Thank you.

Edit:
I write in italics when I write as a mod, and in normal form when writing as a member.
No problem making that code explicit. Other mods do the same thing here (although not always).

[prince]

Hey Hollus, why did you remove my post?
You responded to the italics part, but removed the entire post? That's funny. I would appreciate if you could explain what was violating in my post. Thanks.
My point remains about the recent discussions being out of the context of the topic of thread, which is my perspective and if other feels that it's ok with bringing in driver worship contents in every topic related to drivers and cars with little regard to the actual topic, I don't have a problem, other than saying it as it is.

Seriously, don't come to a Hamilton thread to complain that Hamilton's victories are being discussed.
When Hamilton invades other threads, it is a different story, but this thread was created, literally, to discuss Hamilton's victories in the context of the team/championship environments.

I don't know if this warrants a thread, but I saw a piece on Sky recently where Martin Brundle said that Lewis has developed this car that has won 6 titles and it's not just Mercedes.

This was the first line of the post by Schuttelberg, who started this thread. It's up to you to see if all the content so far has been relevant. I see the water as muddied.

[ringo]

The irony is the topic is actually derailed when it somehow shifts to compare hamilton to the new generation such as max and russell. I think those posts are less fitting than hamitlon fans who actually contribute detailed history for those who have not watched all those races from 2007.
I would like to bring some focus to vettel's championships where Alonso factored with ferrari.
Could those years be considered his more difficult championship years?

[Schuttelberg]

Hey Hollus, why did you remove my post?
You responded to the italics part, but removed the entire post? That's funny. I would appreciate if you could explain what was violating in my post. Thanks.
My point remains about the recent discussions being out of the context of the topic of thread, which is my perspective and if other feels that it's ok with bringing in driver worship contents in every topic related to drivers and cars with little regard to the actual topic, I don't have a problem, other than saying it as it is.

Seriously, don't come to a Hamilton thread to complain that Hamilton's victories are being discussed.
When Hamilton invades other threads, it is a different story, but this thread was created, literally, to discuss Hamilton's victories in the context of the team/championship environments.

I don't know if this warrants a thread, but I saw a piece on Sky recently where Martin Brundle said that Lewis has developed this car that has won 6 titles and it's not just Mercedes.

This was the first line of the post by Schuttelberg, who started this thread. It's up to you to see if all the content so far has been relevant. I see the water as muddied.

The topic was created out of sheer frustration if I am to be completely honest. Anyone who says Max or George are better than Lewis today or Sebastian are just crazy in my opinion. How can something proven be inferior to something yet unproven?

The Hamilton hate is childish these days and fashionable as it was from 2010-13 and from 2000-04. I just thought Brundle was part of that hate brigade and I stick with my opinion. Fair play to those that agree with him, I don't.

And for me personally, years like 2010, 2012, 2018 etc are years I genuinely don't know which the quicker car was because I didn't drive either or engineer both. Fan theories are just that, fan theories (fed by pundits with own agendas.)

One thing I do believe after having watched the sport from 1994 to this day is that F1 desperately needs a level playing field. I have a lot of friends suddenly who are interested in F1 thanks to the Netflix doc. but I cannot explain anything to them in detail about the achievements of these great champions and even the ones with near miss because they find it unbelievable that one person can have better equipment than another and by that margin.

After explaining to them in some kind of detail, they believe the heroes and champions are the teams and none of the drivers in relation to the competition. Just amazing athletes driving amazing cars for champion teams.

It is up to F1 to end such threads for the future.

[Just_a_fan]

The "star" / team dynamic is an interesting one. It's not limited to F1, however. Look at lots of team sports and there are players that are held up individually and spoken about as if they are the reason the team succeeds. There are a number of internationally famous soccer players but all win only as part of a team. Ronaldo can't win on his own, he needs the team to play with. Tom Brady didn't win all of those Super Bowls on his own, he had a team around him. The point, however, is that the individuals can change the team's internal dynamic. People can do better when they see the widely-held top players run out to play with them. The top stars can bring out the best in a team, they can also use moments of individual brilliance to change the course of a game and even a season. Likewise the top drivers in motorsport.

Does an Alonso, a Hamilton, a Vettel, a Schumacher win because of the team or because they help the team to win? Would any other driver have done as well in a given situation? Can an individual make the difference that results in titles in a team sport? Do those that say "no" limit that only to certain drivers or apply it to all drivers? These are interesting questions, I think, that go to the heart of the debate.

The driver as star is not a new phenomenon - Fangio was well known around the world, as wereMoss, Clark, Stewart, etc., and that was when most people only saw motorsport in the news reels and the like. Maybe the stars were only ever stars because the news media talked about them and them alone. It is, after all, easier to form an attachment to, or a dislike of, a single person than a team of hundreds.

[Jolle]

The "star" / team dynamic is an interesting one. It's not limited to F1, however. Look at lots of team sports and there are players that are held up individually and spoken about as if they are the reason the team succeeds. There are a number of internationally famous soccer players but all win only as part of a team. Ronaldo can't win on his own, he needs the team to play with. Tom Brady didn't win all of those Super Bowls on his own, he had a team around him. The point, however, is that the individuals can change the team's internal dynamic. People can do better when they see the widely-held top players run out to play with them. The top stars can bring out the best in a team, they can also use moments of individual brilliance to change the course of a game and even a season. Likewise the top drivers in motorsport.

Does an Alonso, a Hamilton, a Vettel, a Schumacher win because of the team or because they help the team to win? Would any other driver have done as well in a given situation? Can an individual make the difference that results in titles in a team sport? Do those that say "no" limit that only to certain drivers or apply it to all drivers? These are interesting questions, I think, that go to the heart of the debate.

The driver as star is not a new phenomenon - Fangio was well known around the world, as wereMoss, Clark, Stewart, etc., and that was when most people only saw motorsport in the news reels and the like. Maybe the stars were only ever stars because the news media talked about them and them alone. It is, after all, easier to form an attachment to, or a dislike of, a single person than a team of hundreds.

Team dynamics come in to play here. What is a successful team for instance. We've seen in the past in F1 and most of us that work in team as well, that the succes of a team doesn't suddenly drop when you take out one or two of the driving forces. For instance, the well known Ferrari team with Brawn, Todt, Byrne and Schumacher didn't just collapse, they even had succes the two years after Schumachers retirement, but that level wasn's sustainable and soon it collapsed. At both McLaren and Williams happend the same when Newey left. In the short term it didn't look like a big deal, but both teams never really recovered from his departure. Now, at Mercedes the this team is a bit bigger. Of course they already lost a valuable member with Lauda a couple of years ago and the base is now Hamilton, Wolff and Alison, where as characters both Hamilton and Wolff play a big part in the team's succes (not that they are actually improving the car or engineer stuff).

To keep the team at a high level, you need the same kind of driving forces on the right places. At the moment Russell isn't a replacement as Allison was for Paddy for instance. They of course lost more of their senior members of this team, like Costa or Cowell. To maintain the level they have now, it's essential to strengthen this senior team even before considering sidestepping Hamilton.

[PlatinumZealot]

I dont like the title of this topic because it attempts to compare and assumes that 1 title of Vettel values the same as 1.5 titles from Lewis wen it is nothing close to being so!

Vettel is still kept out of the argument when we talk about the greatest drivers, for a reason. His closest statistically, is Prost. But Vet is not seen to have achieved as much as Le Professor for reasons of lack of conpetition and being soundly defeated by moderatlely talented young drivers at the beginning middle and end of his career. Yes. I said it. The end of his career. We will be quite #blessed to witness Vettel going past 2023 or 2022 for that matter. Contracts come with exit clauses these days. And Lance has been getting faster and better...

[nzjrs]

Ooof, just as the fire here was dying down, we are #blessed to have PZ throw some more wood on it.

[Just_a_fan]

[the EDGE]

I dont like the title of this topic because it attempts to compare and assumes that 1 title of Vettel values the same as 1.5 titles from Lewis wen it is nothing close to being so!

Vettel is still kept out of the argument when we talk about the greatest drivers, for a reason. His closest statistically, is Prost. But Vet is not seen to have achieved as much as Le Professor for reasons of lack of conpetition and being soundly defeated by moderatlely talented young drivers at the beginning middle and end of his career. Yes. I said it. The end of his career. We will be quite #blessed to witness Vettel going past 2023 or 2022 for that matter. Contracts come with exit clauses these days. And Lance has been getting faster and better...

That’s an interesting point, Lewis has been beat 2 times by team mates in his 14 seasons, both times by other world champions, whilst seeing off another himself in his rookie year

How exactly does that stack-up against Seb and other world champs?

[aMessageToCharlie]

And completely irrational wood at that.

Talking down Vettel's achievements in comparison to Hamilton's for a lack of competition, when as others have pointed out the Merc is the most dominant car ever with no competition whatsoever and they keep a bottom tier driver in the second car.

Just shows how pointless it is to have a discussion with some people. Completely delusional.

[Jolle]

And completely irrational wood at that.

Talking down Vettel's achievements in comparison to Hamilton's for a lack of competition, when as others have pointed out the Merc is the most dominant car ever with no competition whatsoever and they keep a bottom tier driver in the second car.

Just shows how pointless it is to have a discussion with some people. Completely delusional.

Still wandering, is your name a reference to the message Vettel had for Whiting a couple of years ago in Mexico?

[aMessageToCharlie]

And completely irrational wood at that.

Talking down Vettel's achievements in comparison to Hamilton's for a lack of competition, when as others have pointed out the Merc is the most dominant car ever with no competition whatsoever and they keep a bottom tier driver in the second car.

Just shows how pointless it is to have a discussion with some people. Completely delusional.

Still wandering, is your name a reference to the message Vettel had for Whiting a couple of years ago in Mexico?

It's a song by Lithium X-mas.

[LM10]

Ooof, just as the fire here was dying down, we are #blessed to have PZ throw some more wood on it.

This thread is a typical off-season one. 25 pages and I still have not seen a clear point in it.
After all, it’s one of those never-ending battles of fans of particular drivers and at the end not a single person will have been convinced to change his/her opinion, yet that’s what they try to achieve on each other.

[dans79]

Merc is the most dominant car ever with no competition whatsoever and they keep a bottom tier driver in the second car.

Hamilton's career existed before Mercedes!

Not to mention, you seem to be forgetting about a few guys named Alonso, Button, and Rosberg, so I think your definition of "pointless" needs some serious adjustment!