Silly season 2021-2022-2023

[dans79]

i already mentioned in one of my previous posts about the prospect of lewis beating all the young and talented drivers there next year, especially with george being his team mate. if he could do that, even for just one season, it would raise his stature amongst the greats. max in redbull, lando hopefully much improved mclaren and leclerc in ferrari. even if he loses, no shame, but i am sure he would go down with a hell of fight. making a case to deny george the opportunity to measure up against the best, is a crime. it would make a great contest like 2012 which i am sure we all enjoyed.

By all means explain to us how George has earned the seat!

can you first let us how did lewis earn his seat in 2007? i can then definitely explain why i think george has earned it more.

By winning the highly contested gp2 championship in the previous season. It's also been suggested that his dramatic fight back through the field in Istanbul is what insured his position.

Not to mention as with any rookie driver (what George is not) that jumps directly into a top team, he was in the right spot at the right time.

[MKlaus]

By all means explain to us how George has earned the seat!

can you first let us how did lewis earn his seat in 2007? i can then definitely explain why i think george has earned it more.

By winning the highly contested gp2 championship in the previous season. It's also been suggested that his dramatic fight back through the field in Istanbul is what insured his position.

Not to mention as with any rookie driver (what George is not), he was in the right spot at the right time.

george was also a gp2 winner! he beat the lando, whom you rate so highly for that championship.
no other driver has maintained the consistency of beating their team mates in f1 like michael and senna did, regardless of the quality of the team mate, which george has done. he stepped into mercedes and would have won the gp if not for the pit crew blunder. given the circumstances, even mercedes did not expect the kind of performance he churned. more importantly, he made bottas look as ridiculous as lewis does, even if it was for just once. case closed.

you say 2006 gp2 was highly contested? the only competition was nelson piquet jr. we know how good he was in f1. well that's for another thread.

[El Scorchio]

Oh good. Different thread, same argument.

[Jolle]

Watching talented drivers on a TV screen or purely from results is misleading most of the time. Trackside view, raw data and development curve, especially the ability working with your engineer is so much more informant to see who is hot and who is not.

I've been what you could call a fan of Hamilton when I saw him at the masters of formula 3 in 2004, coming through the field as a rookie, in an older car than the guys around him. Even then it was evident that this kid was going places. The two years that followed were superb. Dominating the euroseries and winning the GP2 in his first attempt. I think he proved his point even more in the first 300 meters of his F1 career.

About Russell, I don't know. Never saw him race trackside. But going from people who do (like journalists that do that for years, team owners, etc), I hear he is the real deal. Even if he misjudged the width of the track last Sunday. I love the fact that he is nog shy in his ambitions. I would love to see him next to old fox Hamilton next year, just like Prost challenged Lauda. Much better fit then Wehrlein or Ocon in the recent past. A form of handing over the torch, but with a good fight. I'm still a bit miffed that Schumacher decided to bail in the wake of Raikkonen coming to Ferrari.

I say, as a Hamilton fan: bring it on! (and a Verstappen-Hamilton lineup, however extremely unlikely, would be very cool to)

[dans79]

you say 2006 gp2 was highly contested? the only competition was nelson piquet jr. we know how good he was in f1. well that's for another thread.

At the time, yes it was considered a talented field. And as you yourself just pointed out, winning the championship itself does not guarantee you will will continue to develop and become a good F1 driver.

For example Nico Rosberg, Lewis, Timo Glock, Nico Hülkenberg, Pastor Maldonado, Romain Grosjean, Jolyon Palmer, Stoffel Vandoorne, Pierre Gasly, Charles Leclerc, George Russell, and Mick Schumacher all won the championship and made it into F1.

imo, of all those name Lewis, Rosberg, Charles, and to a much lesser extent Pierre are the only ones to show they deserved a top tier F1 drive.

As I have said previously, the only thing George has shown to date is:

1. The ability to outqualify drivers who shouldn't even be in f1
2. One good qualifying session in a dominant car on what is the easiest track layout in over 2+ decades
3. One good start at the front of the grid.

On the other side of the coin he has had some embarrassing screwups.

1. France 2019
2. Austria 2020
3. Imola 2020
4. Imola 2021

[MKlaus]

you say 2006 gp2 was highly contested? the only competition was nelson piquet jr. we know how good he was in f1. well that's for another thread.

At the time, yes it was considered a talented field. And as you yourself just pointed out, winning the championship itself does not guarantee you will will continue to develop and become a good F1 driver.

For example Nico Rosberg, Lewis, Timo Glock, Nico Hülkenberg, Pastor Maldonado, Romain Grosjean, Jolyon Palmer, Stoffel Vandoorne, Pierre Gasly, Charles Leclerc, George Russell, and Mick Schumacher all won the championship and made it into F1.

imo, of all those name Lewis, Rosberg, Charles, and to a much lesser extent Pierre are the only ones to show they deserved a top tier F1 drive.

As I have said previously, the only thing George has shown to date is:

1. The ability to outqualify drivers who shouldn't even be in f1
2. One good qualifying session in a dominant car on what is the easiest track layout in over 2+ decades
3. One good start at the front of the grid.

On the other side of the coin he has had some embarrassing screwups.

1. France 2019
2. Austria 2020
3. Imola 2020
4. Imola 2021

you are blindly hanging on to the errors that a young driver has committed to count it against him. despite winning championships, drivers have made blunders. like lewis himself. if lewis was put into a back marker, instead of field leading mclaren, how good would he have looked. definitely not legendary that he is now.
i don't understand your reasoning to ignore george's good work and only focus on normal young driver error stuff. i know you are expert in dragging thread. but i am done, at least with you and i will hold on to my earlier stated opinion.

[Phil]

can you first let us how did lewis earn his seat in 2007?

Who said Lewis earned it? He was lucky to have it, just as anyone is to be among the 20 drivers in F1. The teams ultimately decide who they want in the seat. There's no such thing as entitlement. George is not entitled to the seat, neither is Lewis nor anyone else. He may deserve it on merit, but that's another topic all together in which quite frankly, there just as many in disagreement why George should have it over anyone else.

[dans79]

i don't understand your reasoning to ignore george's good work and only focus on normal young driver error stuff.

Because one of the major criteria front running teams want to see out of a driver before they give them a full time ride, is that they won't screw up when it matters, and if they do they can recover from it. Other than in Bahrain last year, every time he has had a chance at scoring points he has screwed up, and ultimately taken himself out of the race.

[MKlaus]

can you first let us how did lewis earn his seat in 2007?

Who said Lewis earned it? He was lucky to have it, just as anyone is to be among the 20 drivers in F1. The teams ultimately decide who they want in the seat. There's no such thing as entitlement. George is not entitled to the seat, neither is Lewis nor anyone else. He may deserve it on merit, but that's another topic all together in which quite frankly, there just as many in disagreement why George should have it over anyone else.

i liked your answer here. it's as simple as that. it was a specific question for @dans79, because as expected, he seems to think lewis deserved it and george doesn't.

[Just_a_fan]

Most F1 drivers "earn" their seat by being in the top group of drivers throughout their junior career, from karts up through the single seater junior formulae. Most drivers.

Some drivers have their seat bought and paid for and have no obvious talent other than being lucky in their birth. For example, Mazepin. He has never won a single series, not one, even in karts. In 8 seasons of single seaters, he won a total of 7 races. Compare to Hamilton who won 37 races in 5 seasons before F1 and won each formula before progressing to the next one. Or Russell who won 20 races in 5 seasons of single seaters and won 3 single seater championships. Leclerc won 16 races and 2 titles in the 4 years before F1. Max is an outlier because he only did one season of single seaters. He didn't win a series title that year but did win 13 races. He had a hugely successful karting career spanning 9 years, however. Even oft-derided drivers like Stroll have a record of winning titles in junior formulae.

It's these performances in the junior formulae / karting that "earn" a driver the right to have a go in F1. Yes, there are other additional considerations for many - financial backing being key - but many are sponsored by F1 teams once they show potential.

But Mazepin is one that hasn't earned a seat in F1, that's for sure.

[El Scorchio]

Focusing on 'deserved' or 'earned' a seat higher on entering the sport is a myopic way of thinking. It's not that simple. Try thinking of it from an alternative point of view.

Hamilton was actually thrown quite a poison chalice by getting that seat. Chucked in a shark tank with a double world champion as his team mate, under extreme pressure to perform from the very first race. Ron and Mclaren wouldn't tolerate failure at all, and we all know Hamilton would have been out on his ear in double time, possibly never even to reemerge in F1 like so many drivers before and since, if he didn't immediately become competitive with the best driver in the sport at the time.

What did he do? He instantly flourished, and was one poor strategy decision away from winning the title ahead of the best driver in the sport. Next season, he was expected to carry the team and delivered a world title in a season where the team did not manage to win the WCC. He had to have a suit of armour and prove himself against the very best at the sharp end from his first day on the grid.

All the other drivers who come in further down the grid have an absolute luxury in comparison. The whole point is that they can learn on the job with basically no pressure to collect any wins, podiums or points. They can make mistakes. They have protection. They can settle in over time and gain experience. They know they aren't going to get eaten alive by their team mate or put under any real scrutiny.

Hamilton's 'opportunity' was getting pushed straight in the deep end to either sink or swim immediately, while all the others got to splash around with their armbands on. Would the others SAY they wanted that opportunity? Of course. Would most of them have been able to swim rather then sink? Very doubtful.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

[raymondu999]

CAN WE PLEASE GET BACK TO SILLY SEASON — rather than debating George vs Bottas or George vs Hamilton or whatever you call this discussion

[El Scorchio]

CAN WE PLEASE GET BACK TO SILLY SEASON — rather than debating George vs Bottas or George vs Hamilton or whatever you call this discussion

AMEN!

[El Scorchio]

I'll kick start it. Does anyone see Schumacher making the jump to Alfa for 2022?

[Phil]

I think the question about the Mercedes seat is the most interesting one and pretty much guaranteed to dictate what will happen up and down the grid.

Will Hamilton be at Mercedes or in F1 in 2022?
Will one of the Mercedes seats go to either Bottas or Russel?
Will Verstappen be able to get out of his contract with RedBull to join Mercedes in 2022? Or is he firmly locked in, also due to how well RedBull are positioned this year?
If Verstappen moves, who will he be replaced with?
If George moves, who will he be replaced with?
Would Mercedes consider someone outside their junior program that is not Verstappen? E.g. Norris?
Is Alonso really that rusty and will he lose out to Ocon this year? (some part of me thinks that Alonso is just rusty)