Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Shrieker
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Juzh wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:58 am
Hamilton is clearly completely on kerb and slows down much more in this case in order to make that apex. In Verstappen's case his trajectory would never enable him to reach that same line. He's there to make a statement and just goes in too hot for given conditions and plows into verstappen's right rear.
That's one way to look at it; I disagree with that view.

Hamilton took an overly cautious line when he was attacking Leclerc imo - for obvious reasons.

Another point is, circumstances are different; he looks to be further alongside, which turns a direct comparison into an apple and oranges.
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GOAT
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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RZS10 wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:34 pm
No idea how useful this is …
Doesn’t matter, you sure as hell get an A for effort.

My opinion is that it was Max’ corner- he always stayed in front and Lewis should have yielded knowing it was a losing position.

Obviously Lewis took the risk knowing the probable out come.

Left or right, it doesn’t matter- the outcome will always remain the same.

I am looking forward to see how this episode will continue.
People should always be able to justify their actions

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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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TimW wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:26 am
@Shrieker, look at the little black dot above the nose of Hamilton's car, gives a good indication of his trajectory and whether or not he is understeering.
That's the tip of the antenna my friend. It's not a static object, which means you can't take it as a reference point - it can easily mislead you. As a matter of fact, it looks to be swaying (which is to be expected) in the last few frames before contact (maybe cause of the wake from Max's car ?).

I think a more realistic evaluation of understeer would be too look at the gap between the tire and the white line. If there was any significant understeer, we would see the gap open very clearly, yet it's not what happens.
Last edited by Shrieker on Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Shrieker wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:47 pm
Another point is, circumstances are different; he looks to be further alongside, which turns a direct comparison into an apple and oranges.
I think the camera angle makes the overlap appear way smaller than it actually was.
Here's a comparison for both situations:
Image

He was a FW away of being completely level with Max whilst he just about managed to get his front axle ahead of Charles' rear axle, he had such an overlap one brake marker earlier vs. Max.

So going back to this here*
Image
He easily had the significant overlap against Max and was marginal against Charles, potentially not even there yet.

*EDIT: According to MST this most likely was not a current document but was given to Mercedes by Whiting in 2015 and since Merc was never given any contradicting information they believed it was still the basis for the stewards' decisions today, Masi was supposedly not aware of that particular document and there's no info about the current guidelines. It is a bit surprising though that RedBull never said "they argued with an old document so it all remains a bit mysterious.
Last edited by RZS10 on Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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RZS10 wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:04 pm
https://i.imgur.com/hGcFOcL.png
After this frame Max is pulling away, therefor it was a losing position for Lewis.
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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hollus wrote:I want to point out that in the end, those two cars made contact by a mere couple of centimeters, an inch.
Whle the drivers look forward, not to the side.
At 300 km/h.
Turning under braking.
In changing grip conditions.

The analysis is awesome, but the hunt for a guilty party looks excessive in a collision that was extremely close to not being a collision.
Couldn’t agree more… And due to those same factors, the comments in regards to the collision been done purposely or deliberately are “head scratching”


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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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GOAT wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:09 pm
RZS10 wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:04 pm
https://i.imgur.com/hGcFOcL.png
After this frame Max is pulling away, therefor it was a losing position for Lewis.
It is a bit more complex than that though, isn't it?
In such a corner the driver on the inside will always fall back relative to the other car because he has to take a shallower line at a lower speed in order to make the corner if the outside car decides not to yield, this 'falling back' of the inside car or 'pulling away' of the outside car, as you put it, does not automatically mean that the car on the inside has lost the right to be there and should yield.
Last edited by RZS10 on Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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There must be some delay on the telemetry (for both?), it has Lewis at a higher speed than Max even though he's already falling back relative to him.
Max enters the corner at 301 and then there's an obvious glitch in the telemetry which keeps him at that speed until long after the contact, same for Lewis whose speed is stuck at 308 for a long time and he's supposedly on the throttle&brake at the same time for over 40 frames (almost 1 second).
In that form without reliable data and no correction for the it being out of sync it's pretty much useless for judging what happened before the incident.
Last edited by RZS10 on Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Image


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Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Edit: Double Post

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RZS10
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Uh interesting... higher res from their site https://www.formulapassion.it/wp-conten ... -clash.jpg

Still doesn't make much sense given that the graph has Lewis at a higher speed than Max the entire time when he must have been slower in order to fall back relative to him. Unless that bit is covered by the massive X. I really wonder where they get that data from.

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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Its OK. You are moving at 100mph. I am going in 20mph. You catch up to me and slow down to 10mph quickly. My rear wheel tangles your front and we crash.
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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RZS10 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:15 am
There must be some delay on the telemetry (for both?), it has Lewis at a higher speed than Max even though he's already falling back relative to him.
Max enters the corner at 301 and then there's an obvious glitch in the telemetry which keeps him at that speed until long after the contact, same for Lewis whose speed is stuck at 308 for a long time and he's supposedly on the throttle&brake at the same time for over 40 frames (almost 1 second).
In that form without reliable data and no correction for the it being out of sync it's pretty much useless for judging what happened before the incident.
Agree with this 100%, According to that video Max even brakes through Woodcote. So that video means absolutely nothing as its full of errors. As Manoah2u said, this is a racing incident blown so far out of proportion, especially with calls for rule changes to punish drivers more etc etc. How many calls for rule changes have we had this season 2 or 3 now.
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Ryar wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:21 am
RZS10 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:47 am
Uh interesting... higher res from their site https://www.formulapassion.it/wp-conten ... -clash.jpg

Still doesn't make much sense given that the graph has Lewis at a higher speed than Max the entire time when he must have been slower in order to fall back relative to him. Unless that bit is covered by the massive X. I really wonder where they get that data from.
Really? :) That shows the lack of understanding on how much impact Lewis had with that toe. This blows away your theory on another post of mine.
Sorry, you appear to miss his point that Hamilton can't have been at a higher speed than Max all of the time as shown by that graph because Max ended up pulling ahead of Lewis in the corner entry phase. At some point before the crash, the speed traces should have swapped over but that graph doesn't do that.

But if it's based on the video with its patchy "telemetry" then it's hardly surprising that it's incorrect.
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