F1 in the age of "Reality TV"

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: F1 in the age of "Reality TV"

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proteus wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:56 am
Everybody likes to forget that F1 started to go down right after 2002, 03 season. Privateers started to shrink, being unable to get proper results, and arrival of big car companies. Costs risen and field got smaller. Then there were constant rule changes, higher costs and limitations. It all boiled up in 2014 when Mercedes secured themself an advantage over its opposition which is lasting 8 seasons in a row and it might continue into the future.
Any other team could have done a better job that Mercedes. But they didn't. And they still didn't for several years. Some teams even fell out with their engine suppliers, which didn't help their cause, either. None of which is the fault of Mercedes or the rules which they were all following.

The move to reality TV style F1 wasn't caused by the engine rules or Mercedes, it was caused by a misunderstanding of young people by the likes of Bernie Ecclestone. It was down to him that F1 didn't get in to modern content delivery back in the day. Now, F1 is playing catch up and, being owned by a media company of US origin, they are heading down the route most familiar to the owners.

But, hey, blame Mercedes. :roll:
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

nokivasara
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Re: F1 in the age of "Reality TV"

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west52keep64 wrote:
Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:54 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:51 pm
Sulman wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:46 pm

I meant a whole on-screen thing; like they do in Indycar ("the onboard camera rundown, sponsored by Honda"). It's a lot.
This. American sports everything is sponsored “this power play brought to you by…”
I mean... we are kind of already there... "powered by AWS", "DHL Fastest Pit Stop Award" or the "DHL fastest lap"...
I'm sure there's more to come, it's like sporting events in USA are focused on the spectator and marketability. In europe we still have events for the athletes. I doubt TT racing would work in NA.
Or rugby vs NFL, rugby has long periods of play where NFL has short plays with commersials inbetween.

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proteus
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Re: F1 in the age of "Reality TV"

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:07 am
proteus wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:56 am
Everybody likes to forget that F1 started to go down right after 2002, 03 season. Privateers started to shrink, being unable to get proper results, and arrival of big car companies. Costs risen and field got smaller. Then there were constant rule changes, higher costs and limitations. It all boiled up in 2014 when Mercedes secured themself an advantage over its opposition which is lasting 8 seasons in a row and it might continue into the future.
Any other team could have done a better job that Mercedes. But they didn't. And they still didn't for several years. Some teams even fell out with their engine suppliers, which didn't help their cause, either. None of which is the fault of Mercedes or the rules which they were all following.

The move to reality TV style F1 wasn't caused by the engine rules or Mercedes, it was caused by a misunderstanding of young people by the likes of Bernie Ecclestone. It was down to him that F1 didn't get in to modern content delivery back in the day. Now, F1 is playing catch up and, being owned by a media company of US origin, they are heading down the route most familiar to the owners.

But, hey, blame Mercedes. :roll:
The well know story is that when Ferrari and Renault bickered about future engine configuration, Mercedes allready had a demo engine on a dyno. They managed to persuade everybody that this configuration is the future and both Ferrari and Renault went along (rather foolishly). By no doubt it was a masterstroke from the Mercedes to pull this off and with the token system in place it was impossible for anybody to catch up. Fast forward 8 years and they still have the best and strongest engine in the field - shown by the Magic engine of Lewis which was literally flying in comparison to others, without any signs of degradation trough last 3 races.

Even when this year the field came closer to them, they pulled out their magic wild card and again they became untouchable, which just shows that the lead from 2014 still serves them well.
If i would get the money to start my own F1 team, i would revive Arrows

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Big Tea
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Re: F1 in the age of "Reality TV"

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proteus wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:59 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:07 am
proteus wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:56 am
Everybody likes to forget that F1 started to go down right after 2002, 03 season. Privateers started to shrink, being unable to get proper results, and arrival of big car companies. Costs risen and field got smaller. Then there were constant rule changes, higher costs and limitations. It all boiled up in 2014 when Mercedes secured themself an advantage over its opposition which is lasting 8 seasons in a row and it might continue into the future.
Any other team could have done a better job that Mercedes. But they didn't. And they still didn't for several years. Some teams even fell out with their engine suppliers, which didn't help their cause, either. None of which is the fault of Mercedes or the rules which they were all following.

The move to reality TV style F1 wasn't caused by the engine rules or Mercedes, it was caused by a misunderstanding of young people by the likes of Bernie Ecclestone. It was down to him that F1 didn't get in to modern content delivery back in the day. Now, F1 is playing catch up and, being owned by a media company of US origin, they are heading down the route most familiar to the owners.

But, hey, blame Mercedes. :roll:
The well know story is that when Ferrari and Renault bickered about future engine configuration, Mercedes allready had a demo engine on a dyno. They managed to persuade everybody that this configuration is the future and both Ferrari and Renault went along (rather foolishly). By no doubt it was a masterstroke from the Mercedes to pull this off and with the token system in place it was impossible for anybody to catch up. Fast forward 8 years and they still have the best and strongest engine in the field - shown by the Magic engine of Lewis which was literally flying in comparison to others, without any signs of degradation trough last 3 races.

Even when this year the field came closer to them, they pulled out their magic wild card and again they became untouchable, which just shows that the lead from 2014 still serves them well.
Why did Ferrari and Renault then not have a demo prototype of their preferred engine? Negligent in my eyes. Even WV know what they wanted and they were not even in the game
Mankind did not invent the laws of mathematics, we rediscovered them.

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Stu
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Re: F1 in the age of "Reality TV"

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How do you build a engine to a technical specification that is not yet written, OR, why build one to an imagined set of regulations that contradict those being discussed?
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

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Big Tea
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Re: F1 in the age of "Reality TV"

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Stu wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:01 pm
How do you build a engine to a technical specification that is not yet written, OR, why build one to an imagined set of regulations that contradict those being discussed?
Well Mercedes seemingly managed according to some :mrgreen:
Mankind did not invent the laws of mathematics, we rediscovered them.

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proteus
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Re: F1 in the age of "Reality TV"

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Big Tea wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:41 pm
proteus wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:59 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:07 am


Any other team could have done a better job that Mercedes. But they didn't. And they still didn't for several years. Some teams even fell out with their engine suppliers, which didn't help their cause, either. None of which is the fault of Mercedes or the rules which they were all following.

The move to reality TV style F1 wasn't caused by the engine rules or Mercedes, it was caused by a misunderstanding of young people by the likes of Bernie Ecclestone. It was down to him that F1 didn't get in to modern content delivery back in the day. Now, F1 is playing catch up and, being owned by a media company of US origin, they are heading down the route most familiar to the owners.

But, hey, blame Mercedes. :roll:
The well know story is that when Ferrari and Renault bickered about future engine configuration, Mercedes allready had a demo engine on a dyno. They managed to persuade everybody that this configuration is the future and both Ferrari and Renault went along (rather foolishly). By no doubt it was a masterstroke from the Mercedes to pull this off and with the token system in place it was impossible for anybody to catch up. Fast forward 8 years and they still have the best and strongest engine in the field - shown by the Magic engine of Lewis which was literally flying in comparison to others, without any signs of degradation trough last 3 races.

Even when this year the field came closer to them, they pulled out their magic wild card and again they became untouchable, which just shows that the lead from 2014 still serves them well.
Why did Ferrari and Renault then not have a demo prototype of their preferred engine? Negligent in my eyes. Even WV know what they wanted and they were not even in the game
Like i said, it was a masterstroke from Mercedes. And nothing would be bad about it, if it would last for 4,5 seasons. Now it is a season 8, Mercedes is still untouchable (if they want to be) and next year it doesnt look to be any different. They will sweep both titles with ease.
If i would get the money to start my own F1 team, i would revive Arrows

Just_a_fan
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Re: F1 in the age of "Reality TV"

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proteus wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:39 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:41 pm
proteus wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:59 am


The well know story is that when Ferrari and Renault bickered about future engine configuration, Mercedes allready had a demo engine on a dyno. They managed to persuade everybody that this configuration is the future and both Ferrari and Renault went along (rather foolishly). By no doubt it was a masterstroke from the Mercedes to pull this off and with the token system in place it was impossible for anybody to catch up. Fast forward 8 years and they still have the best and strongest engine in the field - shown by the Magic engine of Lewis which was literally flying in comparison to others, without any signs of degradation trough last 3 races.

Even when this year the field came closer to them, they pulled out their magic wild card and again they became untouchable, which just shows that the lead from 2014 still serves them well.
Why did Ferrari and Renault then not have a demo prototype of their preferred engine? Negligent in my eyes. Even WV know what they wanted and they were not even in the game
Like i said, it was a masterstroke from Mercedes. And nothing would be bad about it, if it would last for 4,5 seasons. Now it is a season 8, Mercedes is still untouchable (if they want to be) and next year it doesnt look to be any different. They will sweep both titles with ease.
How can you say they will sweep both titles with ease? We haven't seen the new cars yet, let alone seen them running against a stopwatch or each other. Come on, be realistic - with a massive rule change comes the chances of a team finding a clever trick that gains them a lot of lap time. Likewise, a team can drop the ball totally. Look at Red Bull when the 2013/2014 rule change happened. That can happen this time too.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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proteus
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Re: F1 in the age of "Reality TV"

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 3:40 pm
proteus wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:39 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:41 pm


Why did Ferrari and Renault then not have a demo prototype of their preferred engine? Negligent in my eyes. Even WV know what they wanted and they were not even in the game
Like i said, it was a masterstroke from Mercedes. And nothing would be bad about it, if it would last for 4,5 seasons. Now it is a season 8, Mercedes is still untouchable (if they want to be) and next year it doesnt look to be any different. They will sweep both titles with ease.
How can you say they will sweep both titles with ease? We haven't seen the new cars yet, let alone seen them running against a stopwatch or each other. Come on, be realistic - with a massive rule change comes the chances of a team finding a clever trick that gains them a lot of lap time. Likewise, a team can drop the ball totally. Look at Red Bull when the 2013/2014 rule change happened. That can happen this time too.
Just by seeing how they managed to install an engine which was a class over the others for last 3 GPs. With this kind of power alone they are more than competitive for the start of the next season and for sure they can add more to it. And since what happened this year, they wont be slacking at the start of the season and will be in full charge right away, securing the titles quite some time before the end.
If i would get the money to start my own F1 team, i would revive Arrows

Just_a_fan
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Re: F1 in the age of "Reality TV"

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proteus wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:48 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 3:40 pm
proteus wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:39 pm


Like i said, it was a masterstroke from Mercedes. And nothing would be bad about it, if it would last for 4,5 seasons. Now it is a season 8, Mercedes is still untouchable (if they want to be) and next year it doesnt look to be any different. They will sweep both titles with ease.
How can you say they will sweep both titles with ease? We haven't seen the new cars yet, let alone seen them running against a stopwatch or each other. Come on, be realistic - with a massive rule change comes the chances of a team finding a clever trick that gains them a lot of lap time. Likewise, a team can drop the ball totally. Look at Red Bull when the 2013/2014 rule change happened. That can happen this time too.
Just by seeing how they managed to install an engine which was a class over the others for last 3 GPs. With this kind of power alone they are more than competitive for the start of the next season and for sure they can add more to it. And since what happened this year, they wont be slacking at the start of the season and will be in full charge right away, securing the titles quite some time before the end.
But an engine that only needs to be run for 3 races can be worked harder than one that, ideally, will do the full allocation from the first race of a season.

And it's worth remembering that lap time isn't all about the engine. Even when Red Bull/Ferrari had a less than stellar engine in the back over the last few years, they could still turn in a surprise performance from chassis, aero and driver performance.

I certainly think it's too soon to write off next year as a Mercedes lights-to-flag snooze.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Stu
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Re: F1 in the age of "Reality TV"

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I expect some changes to the penalties for excess engine usage, including budget cap penalties. The FIA have made it quite clear through the last 12-13 years that ‘grenade’ engines are not welcome!
Personally I would prefer to see a driver (and also, therefore, constructor) points penalty for excess power train parts usage. This seems to be a fairer method than grid drop, right through the field.
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

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Mogster
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Re: F1 in the age of "Reality TV"

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proteus wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:59 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:07 am
proteus wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:56 am
Everybody likes to forget that F1 started to go down right after 2002, 03 season. Privateers started to shrink, being unable to get proper results, and arrival of big car companies. Costs risen and field got smaller. Then there were constant rule changes, higher costs and limitations. It all boiled up in 2014 when Mercedes secured themself an advantage over its opposition which is lasting 8 seasons in a row and it might continue into the future.
Any other team could have done a better job that Mercedes. But they didn't. And they still didn't for several years. Some teams even fell out with their engine suppliers, which didn't help their cause, either. None of which is the fault of Mercedes or the rules which they were all following.

The move to reality TV style F1 wasn't caused by the engine rules or Mercedes, it was caused by a misunderstanding of young people by the likes of Bernie Ecclestone. It was down to him that F1 didn't get in to modern content delivery back in the day. Now, F1 is playing catch up and, being owned by a media company of US origin, they are heading down the route most familiar to the owners.

But, hey, blame Mercedes. :roll:
The well know story is that when Ferrari and Renault bickered about future engine configuration, Mercedes allready had a demo engine on a dyno. They managed to persuade everybody that this configuration is the future and both Ferrari and Renault went along (rather foolishly). By no doubt it was a masterstroke from the Mercedes to pull this off and with the token system in place it was impossible for anybody to catch up. Fast forward 8 years and they still have the best and strongest engine in the field - shown by the Magic engine of Lewis which was literally flying in comparison to others, without any signs of degradation trough last 3 races.

Even when this year the field came closer to them, they pulled out their magic wild card and again they became untouchable, which just shows that the lead from 2014 still serves them well.
I thought the engine Mercedes had running early was a turbo in-line 4, they sell that configuration in their road vehicles so it makes sense. They tried and failed to persuade the other suppliers to go down that route, Ferrari were particularly hostile. Iirc the F1 in-line 4 engine still exists at Brixworth. The FIA chose the 90° V6 for 2014, Mercedes just did a better job with the whole PU, particularly the hybrid elements.

zeph
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Re: F1 in the age of "Reality TV"

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My understanding was that Adrian Newey lobbied for a V6 as his concern was that an i4 couldn’t be made to be a load-bearing part of the chassis?

But we’re getting a little off-topic here.

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Mogster
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Re: F1 in the age of "Reality TV"

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zeph wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:17 pm
My understanding was that Adrian Newey lobbied for a V6 as his concern was that an i4 couldn’t be made to be a load-bearing part of the chassis?

But we’re getting a little off-topic here.
Yes as I understand it the current V6 is load bearing, the I4 could not have been, so a huge difference in design. I hadn’t heard of Newey preferring the load bearing engine but it’s possible. Ferrari did prefer the V6 as I understand it, it’s closer to the engine they sell in their road cars.

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Stu
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Re: F1 in the age of "Reality TV"

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Anywho, back on-topic. Surely ‘Reality TV’-age F1 has got to be about the polish of the unsubstantiated?
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….