is Lewis the best ever rookie?

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Post Reply
User avatar
Tom
0
Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
Location: Bicester

Post

Yes, but they can't see the state of their tyres when the tread is spinning at 200km/h. And in the slower corners, particularely at Spa in the wet, you just aren't looking in your rear view mirrors.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

mahesh248
0
Joined: 05 Mar 2007, 12:05
Location: India

Post

welll he looks like won amazing performance by him in the first 3 races well m looking forward to watch him the whole season ...

Carlos
11
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

Post

Jackie Robinson was the best rookie ever - 60 years ago today - he debuted for the Dodgers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Robinson

Torso
0
Joined: 09 Apr 2007, 12:38

Post

Ciro Pabón wrote:
Torso wrote:sorry I ment to say MSchumacher beat Senna (in what counts as his rookie season 1992)... And particularly MSchumachers drive at Spa that year was simply mind blowing!
Look, I have a simple policy: I don't bash drivers. But this time I have to say something, as politely as I can.

Could you explain what was "mind blowing" about Schumacher 1992 Spa race?

This is what I saw, when I was young and beautiful... ;)

Mansell got the pole, Senna took the lead away from him at the start. Schumacher, on a meritorious third place on the qualy, had a big off at Stavelot in lap 30 and decided to go for wet tyres. I saw it with my own eyes and is a little disturbing to see every young man nowadays claiming that was "tactical brilliance" when, from my particular point of view, he was the least capable of the front field in rainy conditions. That was my first thought: "well, the rookie made a mistake".

He was mighty scared, if you ask for my impression, and after the race he declared, in his usual style, he had done it because when Martin Brundle (Martin Brundle, for heaven's sake!) had overtaken him, he had noticed Mr. Brundle's tyres were worn out, so he decided to change his own tyres... that was the first time I saw a driver lying unashamedly in front of a journalist: there was a huge silence when he said that.

Everybody was like: "So, he was not able to see his own tyres? WTF? Why was he in need of watching other people's tyres to realize his own were worn out?" I did not like the guy from that particular race on very much: he had not the slightest need to say such an incongrous phrase. I remember Senna was moving his head side to side in disbelief: he was not particularly fond of exaggerations, let me tell you.

Williams did not react until later to change tyres, because no one of their drivers was that unexperienced under wet conditions.

Even with that bad stroke of luck, I can assure you Mr. Mansell was closing quickly on Schumacher when his exhaust broke and started to fall in position. I don't have the numbers at hand (I tried to find lap times but I couldn't) but I have more or less good memory.

Senna had gambled before that rain will stop and remained ahead. Rain did no cease, so he had to stop for wets after a brave effort that made him lost a lot of time. His late charge was not enough, he only managed to pass Hakkinen.

Schumacher was fortunate to have his big off right when the track was starting to get wet: he changed tyres before everybody and it paid off. That was a race for Mansell, had his car not broke.

I'm not sure if everybody is repeating legends about Schumi based on comments by people that did not even see the race, BTW. He is a great driver, but he definitely was not the "mother of Superman" at that moment in time, in my humble opinion (no offense intended, pleeze :)). He had better races, if you ask me.

That year, for a regular fan like me, he was an extremely good rookie that had been beaten solidly by Nick Heidfeld (whose caliber everybody is discovering now!) when karting together and that had got a wonderful car thanks to a management that, previously, only rock stars had. That management went on to squeeze every drop they could from that victory, a first for him. Good for him, but to see people claiming THAT stroke of luck was an extraordinary performance, when in my opinion have no idea what they're speaking about, makes me boil, specially when "Rain master" stories started to sprout a few years later.

Sorry, it must be the latin blood. Again, no offense intended, please ellaborate as much as you want. I'm all ears. ;)

Oh, and do you really think David Coulthard was the driver of the race at Bahrain? Sure, he had a great race.

Did you see Lewis Hamilton or did not? He made a historical performance, becoming the first rookie ever to get three second places in a row in his three first races, something never done before: this converts him in the best rookie ever (not counting Mr. Baghetti OTHER stroke of luck). Bahrain was a special race because of that. Claiming that Mr. Coulthard, a great driver I admire, overshadowed that is a little strange. Could you ellaborate on that too, please?
jepp it must be the lation blood...and some very dark shades back in 1992;-) cause I see everything very different to you..and all concluding in: It was mind blowing for a ROOKIE to BEAT SENNA IN A WET RACE at one of the three real drivers tracks on the calendar!

Senna hated it. I was not MSchumacher fan at the time but I sure loved it every time Senna was beaten fait and square like that. Simple as that.

And from what MSchumacher wen`t on to produce in wet races over the years truly earned him the nick "regenmeister".

Coulthard offered some real racing today, I was truly impressed by his many superb late brake overtakings. For his commitment and racy performance today earned him my vote as the driver of the day for sure.

Hamilton did what? Started 2nd and finnished 2nd in a great fast car. I can understand he has reasons to feel confident after a solid start to the season, but have him start his rookie year in Coulthards car and see hoew much we would notice him you think?

Hamilton beat Alonso fair and square and that`s good. I hope he can keep up his momentum cause obviously at the moment that means we have 4 drivers right in there for the title.

User avatar
Tom
0
Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
Location: Bicester

Post

Torso said:
Hamilton beat Alonso fair and square and that`s good. I hope he can keep up his momentum cause obviously at the moment that means we have 4 drivers right in there for the title.
Actually 5, he's been keeping his head down but he's there none the less, Nick in his always improving BMW is just one point behind Massa, I'm not ruling him out by any means, if he can keep consistant and occasionally pick off one of the big names, like today, he'll have the advantage of being the only driver who has a team mate completely willing to help, after all Massa isn't going to pull over for Kimi if they're both in for the title, and I don't think Ron would ever ask Lewis to move over for Fernando if his new star still had a shot at the title.

Robert Kubika on the other hand, with an experienced German team mate in an essentially German team, Robert would be told (hinted at) to move over if it would help Nick to a sniff of the title. If I were Mario hell I'd do it.

If Nick is consistent and fast he doesn't have to win, no one's running away with the title so he just has to capitalise on others mistakes and he has an outside chance.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

manchild
12
Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

Post

Torso wrote:And from what MSchumacher wen`t on to produce in wet races over the years truly earned him the nick "regenmeister".
"Rainmaster" was a nick given to Senna. When he died biased German media started calling Schuey "regenmeister" just as they've called him "king of Ardenes". Damon Hill who started racing more-less at the same time as Schuey had only one win less in Spa than Schuey (3 wins Damon 4 wins Schuey) So why was Schuey "king of Ardenes" and Hill wasn't?

Torso
0
Joined: 09 Apr 2007, 12:38

Post

manchild wrote:
Torso wrote:And from what MSchumacher wen`t on to produce in wet races over the years truly earned him the nick "regenmeister".
"Rainmaster" was a nick given to Senna. When he died biased German media started calling Schuey "regenmeister" just as they've called him "king of Ardenes". Damon Hill who started racing more-less at the same time as Schuey had only one win less in Spa than Schuey (3 wins Damon 4 wins Schuey) So why was Schuey "king of Ardenes" and Hill wasn't?
I am not German but I respect MSchumacher for his performance in wet conditions over the years. To me the all time Rainmaster is Schuey not Senna.

"Anyone" would win races with the WilliamsRenault at the time. The hailing belonged to those that could bring inferiour machinery in front of the mighty WilliamsRenaults.
Last edited by Torso on 16 Apr 2007, 09:40, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
MMUK
0
Joined: 08 Apr 2007, 05:35

Post

Ciro Pabón wrote:
Torso wrote:sorry I ment to say MSchumacher beat Senna (in what counts as his rookie season 1992)... And particularly MSchumachers drive at Spa that year was simply mind blowing!
Look, I have a simple policy: I don't bash drivers. But this time I have to say something, as politely as I can.

Could you explain what was "mind blowing" about Schumacher 1992 Spa race?

This is what I saw, when I was young and beautiful... ;)

Mansell got the pole, Senna took the lead away from him at the start. Schumacher, on a meritorious third place on the qualy, had a big off at Stavelot in lap 30 and decided to go for wet tyres. I saw it with my own eyes and is a little disturbing to see every young man nowadays claiming that was "tactical brilliance" when, from my particular point of view, he was the least capable of the front field in rainy conditions. That was my first thought: "well, the rookie made a mistake".

He was mighty scared, if you ask for my impression, and after the race he declared, in his usual style, he had done it because when Martin Brundle (Martin Brundle, for heaven's sake!) had overtaken him, he had noticed Mr. Brundle's tyres were worn out, so he decided to change his own tyres... that was the first time I saw a driver lying unashamedly in front of a journalist: there was a huge silence when he said that.

Everybody was like: "So, he was not able to see his own tyres? WTF? Why was he in need of watching other people's tyres to realize his own were worn out?" I did not like the guy from that particular race on very much: he had not the slightest need to say such an incongrous phrase. I remember Senna was moving his head side to side in disbelief: he was not particularly fond of exaggerations, let me tell you.

Williams did not react until later to change tyres, because no one of their drivers was that unexperienced under wet conditions.

Even with that bad stroke of luck, I can assure you Mr. Mansell was closing quickly on Schumacher when his exhaust broke and started to fall in position. I don't have the numbers at hand (I tried to find lap times but I couldn't) but I have more or less good memory.

Senna had gambled before that rain will stop and remained ahead. Rain did no cease, so he had to stop for wets after a brave effort that made him lost a lot of time. His late charge was not enough, he only managed to pass Hakkinen.

Schumacher was fortunate to have his big off right when the track was starting to get wet: he changed tyres before everybody and it paid off. That was a race for Mansell, had his car not broke.

I'm not sure if everybody is repeating legends about Schumi based on comments by people that did not even see the race, BTW. He is a great driver, but he definitely was not the "mother of Superman" at that moment in time, in my humble opinion (no offense intended, pleeze :)). He had better races, if you ask me.

That year, for a regular fan like me, he was an extremely good rookie that had been beaten solidly by Nick Heidfeld (whose caliber everybody is discovering now!) when karting together and that had got a wonderful car thanks to a management that, previously, only rock stars had. That management went on to squeeze every drop they could from that victory, a first for him. Good for him, but to see people claiming THAT stroke of luck was an extraordinary performance, when in my opinion have no idea what they're speaking about, makes me boil, specially when "Rain master" stories started to sprout a few years later.

Sorry, it must be the latin blood. Again, no offense intended, please ellaborate as much as you want. I'm all ears. ;)

Oh, and do you really think David Coulthard was the driver of the race at Bahrain? Sure, he had a great race.

Did you see Lewis Hamilton or did not? He made a historical performance, becoming the first rookie ever to get three second places in a row in his three first races, something never done before: this converts him in the best rookie ever (not counting Mr. Baghetti OTHER stroke of luck). Bahrain was a special race because of that. Claiming that Mr. Coulthard, a great driver I admire, overshadowed that is a little strange. Could you ellaborate on that too, please?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d89PcySN ... ed&search=

here's video highlights of the race.

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Post

Thanks, MMK. You are extremely kind. Thanks, thanks, thanks.

I still have my old Beta tapes (B&W) stashed away and I dusted off this morning an incredibly old Betamax recorder I had on the attic to watch the race again but I have to confess large chunks are now irretrievable... :cry: I'm sorry for the post-race conference that is now effectively damaged. Shut! I wanted to capture Senna's face at the end of the conference but I could not.

Rainmaster at Spa 1992?

Comment by Schumi himself:

"I really can't describe it. It's something crazy... when I was in the motorhome today I thought I may go to win this race but then... I was just in third or fourth possition and I thought, well my dream doesn't come up and suddenly the situation changed, I went in for dry tyres and it was absolutely at the right moment and, ah.... I could win the race".

Summed up by the commentator: "So, by a combination of luck and clever tactics, Schumacher went on to win his first Grand Prix victory".

This is a fair comment I can agree with: I don't claim I know anything about racing, but I had been watching GP races for 26 years at that moment in my life... BTW, this is my 41st year of watching them, and this morning my heart was pumping waiting for the red lights to go off, I swear! :shock:

You could call Schumacher (and Brawn and Todt, less you forget these great men!) "Tactic Masters" and I wouldn't raise the slightest objection: I claim they somehow discovered how important was tactics when you have patience and do your homework to achieve a good strategy. Alonso has learned that lesson quite well.

I was glad for Schumacher and specially for germans after that race, who hadn't had a victory in decades, if I may add. I just simply did not get the post race comment about tyres by Schumi, but now that I see his face I find that understandable, you can see his enthusiasm.

I still think David is not the only british to watch (and they all deserve more camera time): haven't you noticed Davidson performances at Australia and yesterday on a Super Aguri?

And finally, on thread, Mr. Hamilton yesterday made a little piece of history for british racing. He is the best rookie this year: I'm glad to see the competition is so close. The championship, effectively, is right at square one.
Ciro

Carlos
11
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

Post

Call me Mr Sunshine - but I think every driver that rises in motorsport to be a rookie in F1 - Is The Greatest. :D

Except for those on a "paid ride" - of course :roll:

AeroGT3
0
Joined: 29 Mar 2006, 23:22

Post

I think Hamilton is way over hyped. He's driving the quickest car. Of course he's going to be on podium! I'm more impressed with Davidson. Look where he's getting in a year old Honda with a team that hasn't any money.

User avatar
Sawtooth-spike
0
Joined: 28 Jan 2005, 15:33
Location: Cambridge

Post

AeroGT3 wrote:I think Hamilton is way over hyped. He's driving the quickest car. Of course he's going to be on podium! I'm more impressed with Davidson. Look where he's getting in a year old Honda with a team that hasn't any money.
Does that mean the From 2000-2004 Schmies WC are the same as he had the best car?

He is in the Best car (actual i would say second best, think the ferrari still has the edge) becasue he is that good, you dont just put a numpty in a fast car for no reason. You have to be good enought.

Joint first in the WC? You dont get there by just being lucky.
I believe in the chain of command, Its the chain I use to beat you till you do what i want!!!

mx_tifoso
0
Joined: 30 Nov 2006, 05:01
Location: North America
Contact:

Post

Sawtooth-spike wrote:
AeroGT3 wrote:I think Hamilton is way over hyped. He's driving the quickest car. Of course he's going to be on podium! I'm more impressed with Davidson. Look where he's getting in a year old Honda with a team that hasn't any money.
Does that mean the From 2000-2004 Schmies WC are the same as he had the best car?.
Well, when Shumi won the DC's from 2000-2004, he wasnt a rookie anymore, so lets leave him out of this. And concentrate on the actual rookies and their respective times in history, Hamilton at the moment, more specifically.
I'm not doubting Hamilton's talent either, but the fact that he has one of the best cars on the grid helps him out a great deal. And since he has had the best cars on the grid since GP2 he has always been on the podium, or been winning. Thats why he doesnt amaze me as much as he possibly could, if he had lesser machinery and was still delivering stunning results, that would show his talent a lot better, and then probably I would be a fan. IMO though.
I just hope he doesnt win a race this year, lets leave those things for the other drivers,
I actually prefer Heidfield over Hamilton for a win !
Forum guide: read before posting

"You do it, then it's done." - Kimi Räikkönen

Por las buenas soy amigo, por las malas soy campeón.

User avatar
wazojugs
1
Joined: 31 Mar 2006, 18:53
Location: UK

Post

ok what about jaques villeneuve in 1995, does that count as a rookie then?

User avatar
naknak_56
0
Joined: 10 Apr 2007, 21:02
Location: Wiltshire, UK

Post

Except for those on a "paid ride" - of course Rolling Eyes
Correct me if im wrong but wasnt Fernando a pay driver? also Schumi ?

Post Reply