Alonso tire pressure at china, FIA investigate!

[high-on-octane]

2007 Hamilton = 1988 Senna
2007 Alonso = 1988 Profesor moaner Prost
Conclusion: LH 2007 WDC

That doesn´t surprise me, in 2006 FA already was talking sh*t about his team when things didn´t go as he wanted to.
No no no Fer! thats not the way is goes! Follow Kimis example: shut up and drive fast!

I just registered on this forum so I could state my overwhelming aggreance with you! =D>

[BitFarmer]

How are team favouring Lewis to eek out another lap?

And you say my sources are newbies to F1? OK, two more laps = some liters/kilograms lees on your last 2 speed laps = 0.1 or 0.2s faster lap. In the pole fight it is a world.

Again as requested by Alonso himself as he seemed to think this was the way to go. Drivers with their engineer decide together on tyre choice.

We heard Alonso claiming for new tyres on TV, and the creew replying that this used ones were the better ones they had for him. Didn't you? May be it was Spanish TV micros only that captured this, really, I don't know.

Also read about my sources later: De la Rosa, test pilot from McLaren, was commenting this -and other things mentioned later- on TV live, and he knows better than anyone about fine tunning the McLaren cars.

Dont know where u get ur 'stories' from but it appears either you or your source are new to F1.

In Spain, while retransmision, De la Rosa, the McLaren test pilot, talks live, commenting on all those things from inside, a better source than any you can mention, I assume.

Also Alonso talk about all those "ugly" things every sunday before race, first hand info, I prommise.

Or because no one in his team even asked how he felt after the crash in Japan (except De la Rosa)?

...and your source for this?

Fernando and De la Rosa in person, the only two persons entioned in my statement. Need more guaranties?

OK, also Ron said, when asked by Spanish media, that they didn't take care about Fernando health because nothing was in danger. You didn't heard this on your local media?

Or because the don't tell Alonso anything by radio, even if he have the back alerons broken (Japan) and doesn't know, or Hamilton is out so Alonso can run slower (China)?

...see previous...surely your source can do better than this.

I doubt this, a lot.

When the race finished in Japan, Alonso was interviewed on spanish TV, he then saw the back of his car broken in the replay, and he was surprised, he DIDN'T had any clue of this in his radio on the race, he thought the car was intact, and so he raced as fast as he could without taking care of aerodynamics at all. Very good help from his team.

Also, when in China Hamilton went out, Alonso was not advised, he commented later that he noticed it on the big screens on the circuit. You find this fair play from McLaren, honestly?

He also said than, when passing by on the next lap, he looked right to see it for himself, and the second time he saw it he was reliefed as no one pushed the car into the lane, as it happened before. You remember? It sound like a joke from Alonso, but I also was specting some crane to pick him up.

Wasn't it commented on you TV channel that the circuit comisaries asked Hamilton to get out of the car and leave, as it is mandatory in the F1 rules, and Hamilton didn't do it and continued trying to scape with help?

As you see, here in Spain we know more about what is happenig "under the carpet" than you, in part because they comment on everything that his rumored about Alonso, but more important, because Alonso it self and De la Rosa, both from McLaren team, tell theirs version here only... well, better said, this info, not like the one leaked from Germany, for instance, is ONLY published here, you can't find any of this on other media. Why this important info is not commented on British media?

I really think you are the disinformed ones in this case, really.

[Ciro Pabón]

The bit about Hamilton pushing the car on the pits entrance it's true and, in a year characterized by penalties, amazing. I did not know about Alonso and "radio silence" about his car... Any links, before I start ranting?

[BitFarmer]

Sorry Ciro, it was said live on TV, I didn't record it, sure it is on YouTube some were, but may be not. You can ask any spanish fan, we all had this info at the moment it was happening.

I found this radio conversation on G3 at Hungria, I will translate only the part were hard used tyres are used, but they also talk of Lewis not leting Alonso pass even when Ron tell him to do and more things...

"-But what is happening, witch tyres are those? Where is my last set of tyres?

-Mark!, what is all this about? Are you pulling my leg? Why is he poping the "chupa-chup"? I haven't finished! Ron, Where is my last set of tyres?

-Fernando, we have detected that tyre pressure was not correct in this set and you can't go out with them, it is dangerous. But come on, what is happening to all of you? Why do you look each other? You go out with used and hard type tyres! Move on so Lewis can come in or he will lose the last option!"

Complete speach here:

http://www.audisport-iberica.com/foro/i ... 25959&st=0

Enought? We knew of all thins on this moment, De la Rosa commented it live, so don't tell me it is all fake, may be most of you were unaware, but it doesn't mean it didn't happend, it did, and more.

[Tom]

As you see, here in Spain we know more about what is happenig "under the carpet" than you, in part because they comment on everything that his rumored about Alonso, but more important, because Alonso it self and De la Rosa, both from McLaren team, tell theirs version here only... well, better said, this info, not like the one leaked from Germany, for instance, is ONLY published here, you can't find any of this on other media. Why this important info is not commented on British media?

So you'll know all about Spains head of motorsport suggesting all Brits are racist then?

You know I watched the last 2 GP with 5 Spaniards, all of them agreed that the Spanish media and the British media are bullshi''ing this whole affair way out of proportion and on both sides, the majority of what is said simply isn't true!

Yes we realise you're an Alonso fan, that doesn't mean everyone is out to get him. I'm a DC fan, I don't for a second suspect anyone in Red Bull Racing is deliberatly making crap gearboxes so that they always fail when my driver is in a decent position.

[BitFarmer]

Yes, Tom, I heard about the racist words of spanish FIA agent, and I do not agree with that a bit, and of course I find using such dirty comments awful, being him spanish or chinesse.

[BitFarmer]

And returning to the tyre pressure, the title of this thread, more info on Spanish media:

"El mundo" 14-10-2007 -paper edition, sorry- they talk about the tyre pressure, normal pressure is between 0.1 and 0.2 pounds (psi) on a F1 car -they state that Bridgestone recommend this pressures- while the four tyres in the last set were at 1.2 psi (all 4 warmers suffered the same failure, all in the last set of tyres? And it happendned also like this strange way in Japan too? hummm).

They also talk about an important point that will be seen on interlagos, play attention: There is a honour pact in McLaren about who will have the extra 1 or 2 laps on G3 -it gives you extra time for the pole, the team ordered their pilots to alternate: one GP for Hamilton, next for Alonso.

Hamilton DIDN'T honoured this at Hungria even after the ungry talk with Dennis of my last post. I only translated when Alonso complained about the tures, but before that they talk about Hamilton refusing to let Alonso pass for him to have his extra laps, despite Ron asking it to Hamilton directly.

And now it is time for Alonoso in Interlagos to have this extra lap... will McLaren and Hamilton honour the pact, or will Hamilton again have this advantage???

Here we will see if impartiality is real on McLaren, I really don't know what to spect from them this far, but please place an eye on this next sunday!

[dumrick]

This whole affair is stinking hard. The media are just trying to sell and everyone's inventions are being taken for true. And the most incredible thing is looking at Alonso and Hamilton before a GP and seeing that they get along pretty well and are two fine blokes.

Everytime two teammates fight for a championship is the same, only now all the world press is one click away and the FIA is playing dirty...

[mcdenife]

I really think you are the disinformed ones in this case, really.

You could be right. But I dont get my F1 news from sources that have no interest or knowledge of the sport but sell news by creating it rather than merely reporting it. As Dumrick said:

. The media are just trying to sell and everyone's inventions are being taken for true. And the most incredible thing is looking at Alonso and Hamilton before a GP and seeing that they get along pretty well and are two fine blokes.

Or it could be that because I am not an alonso fan (or not spanish), I dont see shadows where none exist. I am able to look at it in a non-partisan (whatever) way. I think is says something that most (if not all) core F1 fans dont see the favouritism spain sees. Who knows maybe all F1 Fans (apart from Alonso or spanish F1 fans of course) are all disinformed as well.

[checkered]

And the most incredible thing is looking at Alonso and Hamilton before a GP and seeing that they get along pretty well and are two fine blokes.

Anyone criticising

Ron Dennis' capabilities and motives as a team manager should take notice of this. He stated quite clearly, on many an occasion, that any and all contract issues would be settled only after the season is over. The drivers' attitude in the press conference suggests that many issues have been resolved and as those can't be competitive ones, it's highly likely that Ron quite intelligently shook the media off the team's tail in this regard and defused as much of the pressure as he could (Alonso given green light for Renault move? - Pitpass, link) in advance of the championship decider. And we know he certainly didn't owe any such courtesy to Alonso as things have unfolded. Or what should McLaren staff think of the fact that Jose Alonso and Luis Garcia went straight to the Renault hospitality area (and stayed there) upon arriving at Interlagos on Thursday? (James Allen's blog - ITV, link) It's not the first time (by a long shot) either, we've seen these sorta things happening all through the season. What surprises me most is that anyone actually believing such actions truly amount to anything even remotely positive or constructive. To anyone involved.

If I remember it correctly, I did offer some points of view on the tyre pressure issue earlier on. (Or did I just intend to? Can't remember now.) Though what I offered was hardly a be-all and end-all explanation, I did think at least some aspects of the claims were put to rest by my (and others') comments about various issues, but clearly that's not the case. Since this is a technical forum (and participants here are inquisitive and have technical insight to various things), I suggest that anyone advancing vague conspiracy theories (even after Alonso himself lamented about the excess scrutiny from the FIA) would look into how much energy it would require from the tyre warmers (To which the pressure change seems to be attributed?) alone to increase tyre pressure from 0.2 psi to 1.2 psi (And what other physical effects that would have on a F1 tyre even before taking them to track, driveability etc.!? ~0.07 psi is the standard atmospheric pressure.) and roughly to what extent that energy would've been lost to entropy simply by driving a warm-up lap? Clearing some of these things up to oneself might, by extension (I hope) alleviate some other concerns, too.

I'm not a great fan of discussing things by throwing more or less separate arguments in a great big pile in the hopes of creating an impression and thus I generally try to avoid doing the same myself. Against my better judgement (and in the full knowledge that this does no favours to establishing any kind of causality between the things that are - I'm not quite prepared to say "discussed" at this point - on this thread) I'll venture to note about Hungary and the "honour pact" (in fact a McLaren devised intentional equality strategy, a reaction to yet earlier events), without wanting to discuss the issue in depth again. (I'm sure my opinions on all that are documented somewhere if they are of any interest to anyone.) Hamilton did radio his team that he was willing to move over for Alonso if Fernando just pulled away a little from a competing team's driver (Raikkonen) who was following so close to him that he could've also passed Hamilton thus making an even worse mess of McLaren's intended tactics.

Fernando failed to attempt to do so when informed about how he could take his intended position (belatedly, but no real harm done), perhaps already convinced for some reason that Hamilton (or the team) wasn't going to let him pass anyway. He even dropped further back from his teammate for some reason at which time the team must've realised they needed a contingency plan hatched up on the spot. The stewards certainly didn't publish Mclaren radio comms, so I find it surprising that elcorreodigital would've gotten hold of the actual transcripts in their colourful depiction of events. Of course, any and all radio traffic between Hamilton, his race engineer and Dennis is being omitted from the article.

Hungary was the culmination of a disaster for McLaren, but the qualifying mess (for whom everyone was to blame) was just a superficial symptom of underhand tactics, distorted opinions, attitudes and lies that had fermented in various corners of the team at least from the start of the season. I refer you to the "spygate" thread if you want to appreciate what self-inflicted non-competitive pressures Alonso, for example, might have experienced during that weekend - qualifying included.

Niki Lauda tends to shoot off his mouth in a fashion that doesn't appeal to me much, but he is in contact with the F1 world still, so there are thing here and there worth paying attention to. Recently he offered his opinions about Fernando in a "Laudesque" fashion:

Flavio told me a year ago: don’t underestimate the way this guy thinks... Flavio knew but he certainly wasn’t going to tell Ron!
...
Everybody is surprised, even de la Rosa. I said, Pedro why didn’t you realise before, he’s your Spanish mate? He said, I tell you I was surprised too!
...
I don’t imagine how a man can put himself in such a position in the paddock, where really nobody wants to talk to him. I know details from McLaren, just listening, which is worse than you’d ever think.

Niki Lauda on Alonso - ITV, link

I was thinking twice whether to post anything at all. In the end I feel that more effort has been put into muddying the waters than clearing them up. I have little sympathy or energy for those, then, who at this point of the championship come crying that the championship has been tarnished, or that things could've been handled better. Well, there's a shocker! True champions don't look after their own championship alone, they look after the championships in general and that's a tall order indeed. That's why there are rules about sportsmanship, too. Look up what it says under "champion" in the dictionary and then think what it is to defend a championship. One takes part in it, but it cannot be owned. Passing one on should be as great a celebration as winning one is.

Well, there's always the next one by which time we'll see whether everyone involved has managed to extract all that's positive from 2007. I'm looking forward to be surprised in a positive fashion. By every driver, every team.

[BitFarmer]

You could be right. But I dont get my F1 news from sources that have no interest or knowledge of the sport but sell news by creating it rather than merely reporting it.

I told you my main sources are De la Rosa and Fernando, not any media with interest in selling anything. If they say so in a TV channel, well, in some place it has to be said, it doesn't mean De la Rosa words are not trusty.

Also some of you had repeted many times about spanish media, or fans, or myself, not having real knowledge on F1. Well, I don't say I/we know more than any of you, but I am following it five years from now, every weekend, very close, and I find my self here speaking with all of you, let's say at the same level of credibility if not more in some cases, and the spanish media is in big part the TV with De la Rosa and Fernando speaking every weekend... please think of us just like fans, the same as you are, and then use real arguments to discuss with me, please, the other way it may look a little like you discredit anything coming from Spain with some racist tint on it, no ofense, please.

Anyway, I do agree with you in that all this shouldn't be happening, nor amplified by the media, and that surely it is not as important as i pounder it, nor as irrelevant as you may think, but something in betwen, as it do happen in most of the cases.

But if something odd do happend, and rare things had happened in both FIA decision about Hamilton and Alonso, on track comisaries decisions, and also in McLaren team -call it just coincidences , sabotage, broken radio and warmers or a case of bad bad luck- I do prefer the media to amplify it rather to silence it, honestly.

[checkered]

I told you my main sources are De la Rosa and Fernando, not any media with interest in selling anything.

I would've thought

that in what is for the most part a sponsor financed sport, the drivers sell and represent much more than opinions and news. At least it would be rather silly of the drivers to not appreciate that. And what comes to how perceptions are formed on this forum, I can't speak for everybody (how could I, in an open environment?). Personally, I'm not big on first impressions and like to observe how everyone's web presence evolves. I keep tabs on the Spanish media, too, since they have their own perspective and have access to certain people and I certainly can appreciate how that effort complements the overall coverage. I look forward to seeing how Roldan Rodriguez's debut next year is being presented and in what balance that will be to the overwhelming attention Alonso (quite understandably) has been getting lately.

[lane27]

the theme of the bad pressure in Alonso´s tyres is true, look at this:

Q: (Bob McKenzie – The Daily Express) So you trust the team?
FA: Yes. As I said in China, I think I was disappointed with the qualifying performance and I felt it was a very strange result after Q1 and Q2, being a little bit closer to fight for pole position, not in Q3 anymore, but we realised that the tyre pressures were a little bit too high and this can happen in any of the qualifying sessions, so I just want to think that it was coincidence and a little bad luck, so this race should be OK.

it´s the answer made by Alonso in the FIA Thursday press conference - Brazil

and he had pressure tyre problems in Q3 in Japan too

i think it´s known the fact, by the british media too, but they didn´t informed

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, I don't say I/we know more than any of you, but I am following it five years from now, every weekend, very close, and I find my self here speaking with all of you, let's say at the same level of credibility if not more in some cases, and the spanish media is in big part the TV with De la Rosa and Fernando speaking every weekend... please think of us just like fans, the same as you are, and then use real arguments to discuss with me, please, the other way it may look a little like you discredit anything coming from Spain with some racist tint on it, no ofense, please...

Well, I'm a spaniard too and I've been following F1 for 41 years now and I've been racing karts for 30. If you do not take in account Carlos, DaveKillens and the missing Manchild, (all of them started to watch races at the Roman Coliseum, I think) this makes the spaniard contingent the most experienced here.

I don't think discrediting racing in Spain has anything to do with racism: some people here think spaniards have had no drivers in 50 years and besides, they simply speak too loudly... and after living in Colombia for decades, I agree.

Besides, as I am also a Colombian, I can complain about spaniards gladly, in my "sudaca" role...

About asking for real arguments, BitFarmer, that's asking too much. Content yourself with vague comments, a few explosions and a couple of guys around, trying to put some knowledge into our hardened minds...

Now, if a guy from Finland complains about Kimi being mistreated, well, we all smile.... You should have seen me when JPM was around. I was the guy everybody made jokes about. Hey, I think I'm still in that role. I know some people here have good hearts, because they have stopped talking about NASCAR.

You know what they say about the guy that goes at the front of a race: he has all the arrows stuck in his back. Alonso is living this situation right now, Lewis and the british fans could live it next year.

[BitFarmer]

the theme of the bad pressure in Alonso´s tyres is true, look at this:

Q: (Bob McKenzie – The Daily Express) So you trust the team?
FA: Yes. As I said in China, I think I was disappointed with the qualifying performance and I felt it was a very strange result after Q1 and Q2, being a little bit closer to fight for pole position, not in Q3 anymore, but we realised that the tyre pressures were a little bit too high and this can happen in any of the qualifying sessions, so I just want to think that it was coincidence and a little bad luck, so this race should be OK.

it´s the answer made by Alonso in the FIA Thursday press conference - Brazil

and he had pressure tyre problems in Q3 in Japan too

i think it´s known the fact, by the british media too, but they didn´t informed

Well, not only it is clear by now that something "strange" had happened to tyre pressure in Alonso car at 2 or 3 Q3 saturdays, what I find very suspicious is Ron saying about it that he "thinks" the pressure was ok... if I were him and some one spread this "lie", I had said "this is not true, I know the pressure was right because I have the original telemetry records on my hands about Alonso tyres pressure during China Q3, and here I give you a copy of that data so you can know it all".

It is as easy as that to stop McLaren from being accused of this, as long as this data says what Ron claims, of course: And sure this is not any McLaren secret witch pressure they use, or how tyres worked on those laps, because those same tyres are used by lot others.

May be all this is bad luck only, but at least, McLaren is doing it very poorly on demostrating its equanimity on those cases.