BMW & Williams under investigation!

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meves
1
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 12:01

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It would be helpful to have clarification on where this is measured, when it is measured and what they will do in future to ensure this happens. Not that I have any preference but I hope that McLarens position does not change.

Sorry to distract from the topic, what happens if Spyker and Toro Rosso are judged to be not elligable for championship points will McLaren be further up than them and what happened with that?

axle
3
Joined: 22 Jun 2004, 14:45
Location: Norfolk, UK

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meves wrote:It would be helpful to have clarification on where this is measured, when it is measured and what they will do in future to ensure this happens. Not that I have any preference but I hope that McLarens position does not change.

Sorry to distract from the topic, what happens if Spyker and Toro Rosso are judged to be not elligable for championship points will McLaren be further up than them and what happened with that?
TBH I actually think this is what McLaren want, the issue cleared up - cause if they can do it too legally, they will...so the playing field is level.
- Axle

kimi
0
Joined: 06 Jul 2007, 19:19
Location: india
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mclaren will be given the last pit garage and its drivers will be numbered with lewis-21 and alonso-22.coz they have no constructor points.

now is prodrive enters it will take the garage after mclaren and its cars will be 23 and 24.

now if lewis wins the title after an appeal then their cars would be lewis-1 and alonso-2 but still they will be given the last garage in the pit lane.

but for now the order will be:
ferrari:kimi-1,massa-2
BMW-nick-3,kubica-4
Renault-fisi-5,heikki-6
and so on.....

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Rob W
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Joined: 18 Aug 2006, 03:28

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Tom wrote:Numbers are assigned by WDC points, as stated above the Ferrari's would be 1-2 with Kimi leading, Mclaren 3-4 and BMW 5-6...
I don't think this is correct Tom. The number 1 car goes to whoever is the reigning driver's champ, and his team-mate automatically gets number 2. thereafter however it reverts to the team results for order.

The reasoning for this I guess is to not unfairly 'penalise' teams who's top drivers move on for the next season. This is why Alonso was #1 this year and Renault had 3 & 4, not Ferrari even thought Schumy was runner up in the 2006 championship. It also perhaps prevents a new team signing the WDC and inheriting the car #1 in their first year.

So, as far as I can quickly work out, next year will look like this (assuming these drivers stay where they are):

1 - Kimi, Ferrari
2 - Massa, Ferrari
3 - Heidfeld, BMW-Sauber
4 - Kubica, BMW-Sauber
5 - Fisichella, Renault
6 - Kovalainen, Renault
7 - Rosberg, Williams
8 - Nakajima, Williams
9 - Coulthard, Redbull
10 - Webber, Redbull... and so on down to

21 & 22 - McLaren..or something like that.. (assuming Force India are entered and Prodrive are not)

Rob W
Last edited by Rob W on 25 Oct 2007, 00:00, edited 2 times in total.

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Rob W
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Joined: 18 Aug 2006, 03:28

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antrock wrote:numbers are assigned in respect of the teams WCC position the previous year except that the WDC and his team get number 1 & 2.
Correct. See my above post.. and (guessed) reasoning.

Rob W

alvaromauri
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Joined: 24 Oct 2007, 01:53
Location: Bolivia-South America

McClaren, "the immaculated team" If we could call

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Hi every body, I’m from La Paz Bolivia Sout America, I love motorsports, specially F1, specially this year due of my cousin who is already now practicing in Formule Renault for the next year. In this Issue I’m really surprised because of a team like McClaren, one of the most important teams trying to win making trap, stealing information, lying saying that no one else have known about the spy gate, laying saying that Fernando Alonso did not tried to harm Hamilton in Nurburgring Grand Prix, and now LAYING saying that they don’t want to harm Kimi, just to “…ensure that the rules are applied”…. Please I’ll not eat that garbage… If they just want to be sure that the rules are applied, in such a little detail, why are they still running this season and the next????? They have make --- on the rules the whole year, and now they are trying to appear the “holy team”…

Ferrari, has appeal some thing really HUGE!!!! SO MANY times that Ferrari could win appealing the McClaren’s Illegalities, specially with Hamilton! Please….. let’s be honest with our selves.

Thanks

Alvaro

DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

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Hi alvaromauri, welcome to THE forum. I've been watching Formula One for decades, and I have no illusions that no one has clean hands. Ferrari are no more honest or Holy as McLaren, or anyone else. They are all engaged in very fierce competition, not only on the track, but in all areas.
I respecfully disagree whether this is an important issue. Remember, the World's Driving Championship may be determined by this appeal. Hamilton may wish to obtain this prize in a different way, but not only prestige is involved. A lot of money is at stake, and for a business to willingly surrender a chance at so much money, it would just be foolish business practice. So they appeal, and everyone knows that revenge and spite motivate Ron Dennis.

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megz
1
Joined: 14 Mar 2007, 09:57
Location: New Zealand

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In 2005 McLaren had number 10 on Montoyas car. It's my understanding that next year will make it 3 years since a double digit number was on one of their cars :D

casper
5
Joined: 05 Oct 2007, 02:56
Location: Equatorial Guinea

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It is in fact easy to measure temperature of the gasoline. All fuel suppliers around the world follow the same procedure for testing fuels, ie the ASTM standards, ASTM stands for American Standards for Testing and Materials.

A mercury themometer, or digital thermometer can be used for the purpose. To ensure all thermometers work irregardless of its make, they are calibrated at 3 degree points: 0 degree centigrade, 40 degree centigrade, and 100 degree centigrade. A thermometer should be within 0.5°C of the measured point to be considered for use. The following link describes procedures for calibration mercury and digital thermometers, http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/library/fntr2/mf2440.pdf

One can take a sample into a 1 liter glass bottle from the refueling rig after the pitstop and immerse the thermometer into the liquid. For fuels, a 12 degree centigrade difference is a great deal. Colder fuel weigh more, because of its higher density, so more fuel will be transferred to the F1 car than if it were at a higher temperature at the same pitstop duration. As the fuel dissipates heat inside the car during the course of the race, its volume increases. This volume increase might be sufficient enough for the car to make one additional lap.

Heres how F1 cars are refueled in the 70s:

http://atlasf1.autosport.com/evolution/70s1.jpg

timbo
111
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

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Well, there's no problem to measure fuel temperature. Ambient temperature is more tricky. But even the given clarification of the official temperature measurement there's a problem of adjusting fuel temperature within a limit when ambiente temperature rises faster than expected.

alvaromauri
0
Joined: 24 Oct 2007, 01:53
Location: Bolivia-South America

Disappointing

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May be I have just two decades and a half watching F1, But I was thinking that a team like McClaren could be more honest, obviously I do not think that Ferrari or any other is perfectly honest, as well as McClaren; But for me McClaren was may be one of the MOST honest teams, at this very moment they are not even a team for me. I really don’t know why they have fallen that low. Any way If the FIA can decide the Championship because of this is even more disappointing (business, competition or whatever).

Nevertheless, this year has been a sort of black humour novel, increasing the Formula 1’s Interest, but giving a displeasure feeling. May be F1 was always dishonest, I don’t know, I do not think that in that measure…

In Bolivia we have a phrase “looking for three feet to the cat”, this is what McClaren is doing with the fuel temperature, and this kind of tricks sucks.

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Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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Well, maybe you could think of technical violations in F1 the same way you think about fouls in football, or so they are treated in most racing series. They're not nice, but sometimes they're necessary.

That doesn't mean that you are going to escape from the "boos" of the public.

Besides, a technical team that doesn't bend the rules, lacks imagination, or so they say. The true problem resides in bending the rules without breaking them.

In such a highly competitive environment, the ability to read the field (la "cancha") is crucial, don't make mistakes about it. "Tricks and treats" are a fascinating part of the environment and most even seasons are decided by them.

Again, that doesn't mean your technical violations must reach moronic proportions: at least, do NOT copy your opponents blue prints at your local copy shop.

Notice, for example, how different is the treatment for engineers (that normally get a slap on the wrist and a money penalty) from the treatment given to aggresive drivers.

My conclussion: the International Sporting Code is more important than Technical Regulations.

On the other hand, when your engineers (or your football players!) step over the line too many times, you get bad luck. People fix their sights on your behaviour and you get "The Famous Curse of the Techical Infringement"... :)
Ciro

casper
5
Joined: 05 Oct 2007, 02:56
Location: Equatorial Guinea

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heres another take on why Mcalren has to fiel an appeal:

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19815.html
...

"There are also questions about the way that the FIA handled the question of the Ferrari floor at the Australian Grand Prix. The device was deemed to be illegal a few days after the Australian GP. This clarification was not deemed to be retroactive despite the fact that McLaren alerted the FIA's Charlie Whiting to the problem on March 16 - two days before the Melbourne race - using the protocol that is employed of seeking an opinion from the FIA. This is considered to be a better way to solve problems than by using public protests. Whiting did not rule on the matter until after the event. Thus McLaren could have protested the Ferrari in Melbourne and Ferrari might have been excluded but the British team did not do so "in the interest of motor sport". It has now paid a very high price for trying to avoid a controversial start to the season."
...

The reason why rules are made is to make the playing field equal and to prevent other teams from gaining an unfair advantage. Clearly Ferrari gained an advantage during the Melbourne GP, and no points deducted despite running "illegal" cars. This to me clouds the legitimacy of Kimi's Championship.

timbo
111
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

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No points were deducted from Alonso either after the ban of mass-dampers. Face it, the car WAS legal!
To say that it was illegal is like calling 1993 caar illegal because active suspension and everything else was banned in 1994. So what, deduct points from anyone who used active suspension?

Saribro
6
Joined: 28 Jul 2006, 00:34

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Some other, possibly interesting insights on the fuel thing:
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type ... O_ID=41190
(scroll down to the 3rd section)
So in that light, it does seem that BMW and Williams were legal, and McLaren will have a hard time proving otherwise.

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