So what happened to the new teams?

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Chaparral
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Re: So what happened to the new teams?

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Scotracer wrote:
Chaparral wrote:
Scotracer wrote:FOTA 9 + Campos + Williams + Litespeed + Epsilon + LOLA + Prodrive + USF1 + March + Superfund = 18
Hey Scotty Im so excited by the new entries I near wet myself mate - what a salivating list of entries it makes - Im sure Mosely hasnt had time to change hands yet - he's a total tosser
Yes.

I hope you don't mind me using your reference to Mario as an inspiration for me avatar ;) :lol:

Thanks Scotty having a chuckle here - as Is says Brabham is an entrant whoa who owns the rights these days - perhaps Ciro can check with his mate David Brabham - Ecclestone cant still own the rights :?
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs - there's also the negative side' - Hunter S Thompson

DaveKillens
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Re: So what happened to the new teams?

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In an effort to sort out the fluff, I went to the Ferrari web site and came across this interview by Domenicali
The FOTA press release talks of conditional entries: what does that mean?

“It’s very simple. The nine teams – Williams membership having been suspended – that currently make up FOTA, have put in entries for the 2010 championship that will only be valid if the Concorde Agreement is signed and if the regulations will be those currently in use, but modified as per FOTA’s suggestions. The action taken yesterday is completely in keeping with Ferrari’s principles, as stated at the Main Board meeting on 12 May and with those of FOTA.”

What will happen if these conditions are not met?

“Once again, the answer is simple: the entries from the nine teams will be invalid.”
http://www.ferrari.com/English/News/Pag ... iples.aspx

So what will happen on the 12th of June when the list of competitors is announced? Right now there are more entrants than positions. So some teams will be left out, but who?
I see three different scenarios. First, all the incumbent teams get in and some new teams get to join the show. Second, up to three of the incumbents are rejected, and the rest of the grid is filled by new entrants. Or third, and this is what I really fear, is that all 9 of the FOTA entrants are rejected, and the field would be composed of new entrants, with the exception of Williams.
I believe we will see the second scenario unfold, with Ferrari and Toyota not allowed to participate.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: So what happened to the new teams?

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bjpower wrote:well some of the back lash has to be the forced budget.
sure if the tax man told me how to only pay a fraction of what i do i would be delighted.

but if he told me the solution to fire the majority of my co workers well i would be slow to do that.

the teams have become huge.
dropping the budget to 10% of what some teams spend is basically asking you to fire 90% of your staff.

imagine going to work and firing 9 out of every 10 people.
( ok it may not be that high but your forcing teams to do that)

I have already proven that to be false in this thread.

The budget cap DOES NOT include, driver salaries, hospitality/marketing, engine costs, or any other costs that do not specifically make the car go faster.

In Ferrari's case that breaks down to
40 mil pound cap plus engine costs of around $50 mil american, driver costs of at least $50 mil and hospitality/marketing of at least $100 mil... right there alone we are approaching $275 mil(and that is a very conservative break down)... not that far from their current budget.

And in the case of Ferrari, they could always shift personnel to the road car programs or other racing endeavors.

Yes they may be fighting over governance issues, but we have already been shown that they had veto rights over FIA moves already(and still do) so really what they are fighting for is their ability to outspend any other team.

timbo
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Re: So what happened to the new teams?

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ISLAMATRON wrote:so really what they are fighting for is their ability to outspend any other team.
They really weren't the biggest spender since probably 90's.
And even in that time their budget was divided between engine and chassis department while other top-team were partners with engine manufacturers.

bjpower
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Re: So what happened to the new teams?

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ISLAMATRON wrote:
bjpower wrote:well some of the back lash has to be the forced budget.
sure if the tax man told me how to only pay a fraction of what i do i would be delighted.

but if he told me the solution to fire the majority of my co workers well i would be slow to do that.

the teams have become huge.
dropping the budget to 10% of what some teams spend is basically asking you to fire 90% of your staff.

imagine going to work and firing 9 out of every 10 people.
( ok it may not be that high but your forcing teams to do that)

I have already proven that to be false in this thread.

The budget cap DOES NOT include, driver salaries, hospitality/marketing, engine costs, or any other costs that do not specifically make the car go faster.

In Ferrari's case that breaks down to
40 mil pound cap plus engine costs of around $50 mil american, driver costs of at least $50 mil and hospitality/marketing of at least $100 mil... right there alone we are approaching $275 mil(and that is a very conservative break down)... not that far from their current budget.

And in the case of Ferrari, they could always shift personnel to the road car programs or other racing endeavors.

Yes they may be fighting over governance issues, but we have already been shown that they had veto rights over FIA moves already(and still do) so really what they are fighting for is their ability to outspend any other team.

so with 40 million you able to run
2 wind tunnels 24/7 using 3 shifts per tunnel.
an army of designers
mechanics
fabrication employees.
programmers
electronics engineers.
hydraulic engineers.
a massive it infrastructure & it admins
thats not even half of it.
sure they do allot of sponsorship crap. but as you probably recall when bmw bought sauber they were hiring left right and center.


is hr included, cleaners, the motor homes, transport.
I would find it very hard to believe that teams only spend about 40 million on R+D and the physical building of the car when toyota were spending over 12 times that amount per year.

1 million would not cover the electricity bill for the building im in right now.
and we dont have any wind tunnels.

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: So what happened to the new teams?

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timbo wrote:
ISLAMATRON wrote:so really what they are fighting for is their ability to outspend any other team.
They really weren't the biggest spender since probably 90's.
And even in that time their budget was divided between engine and chassis department while other top-team were partners with engine manufacturers.

The only real success they have had since the late 70's is during the MS years when they were clearly outspending everybody after poaching Malboro & Shell from McLaren, I'm not saying it is wrong, just stating a fact.

Maybe after the experiences of the 80's & 90's they lack the confidence that they can win without outspending everyone like we have seen Benetton/Renault or Williams have.

Yes the other teams had manufacturer engines but other teams shared McLaren's dominant Hondas or Williams dominant Renault engines, so they didnt have that clearcut technical advantage from those manufacturer's relationships, and we see that Renault did produce their own engines without nearly the same budget, and won doing it(even though those wins were from their relationship with Michelin)

Right now Ferrari have a clear cut financial/budget advantage and are doing everything they can to hold on to it. They have a point in that all teams should compete on a level playing field from a technical point of view, but they refuse to accept that same reasoning from a financial point of view(even though they would still have more money with which to hire the best drivers and best engines)

timbo
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Re: So what happened to the new teams?

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ISLAMATRON wrote:In Ferrari's case that breaks down to
40 mil pound cap plus engine costs of around $50 mil american, driver costs of at least $50 mil and hospitality/marketing of at least $100 mil... right there alone we are approaching $275 mil(and that is a very conservative break down)... not that far from their current budget.
Yeah, and this is absurd statement. I can rearrange it into -
In Ferrari's case that breaks down to
0 mil pound cap plus engine costs of around $50 mil american, driver costs of at least $50 mil and hospitality/marketing of at least $100 mil... right there alone we are approaching $235 mil(and that is a very conservative break down)... not that far from their current budget.

timbo
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Re: So what happened to the new teams?

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ISLAMATRON wrote:The only real success they have had since the late 70's is during the MS years when they were clearly outspending everybody after poaching Malboro & Shell from McLaren, I'm not saying it is wrong, just stating a fact.
They didn't outspend Toyota and Honda. And I always have doubts about McL-Merc budget - does it estimate Merc participation fully?
Right now Ferrari have a clear cut financial/budget advantage and are doing everything they can to hold on to it. They have a point in that all teams should compete on a level playing field from a technical point of view, but they refuse to accept that same reasoning from a financial point of view(even though they would still have more money with which to hire the best drivers and best engines)
They don't have advantage over Toyota and McLaren is definitely on par if not richer.

PS, and your Renault example only shows that it is not possible to outspend plain and simple for win. Besides Toyota and Renault I recall that in 2000 Prost managed to get one of the biggest budgets in F1 and got no points...

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WhiteBlue
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Re: So what happened to the new teams?

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Islamatrons figures may be a bit inflated, but in the case of Ferrari there is little doubt that they would still be spending in excess of 150 mil US$. That is very serious money and probably 4 or 5 times what new teams will be able to spend.

I think that Ferrari do not need a budget of 300 mil US$. It is the Luca di Montezemolo's pride that stands in the way of a reconsiliation. He knows that Ferrari always got what they wanted for the last 20 years and he will not accept that it may go different this time.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

bjpower
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Re: So what happened to the new teams?

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the teams will spend what they can and thats grand
if its caped for the car and block then it will be more about the creative engineers.

but the teams will spend any left over on everything else
did the cost of racing come down when they stoped engine dev.
na they just pumped it into something else.

you give them 40 mill on the car
they will spend 300 on the engine.

timbo
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WhiteBlue wrote: I think that Ferrari do not need a budget of 300 mil US$.
I think it's a shame that FOTA does not present it propositions for FIA on public. From my understanding they set the goal of diminishing budgets by a half in a few years and that would mean they are aiming at 200 mil figure.

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WhiteBlue
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timbo wrote:I think it's a shame that FOTA does not present it propositions for FIA on public. From my understanding they set the goal of diminishing budgets by a half in a few years and that would mean they are aiming at 200 mil figure.
What is the point of running a team at a 40 mil pound budget if your competitors spends 200? Nobody will do that. F1 will simply collaps unless they all come under a cap that is sensible.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

timbo
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WhiteBlue wrote:What is the point of running a team at a 40 mil pound budget if your competitors spends 200? Nobody will do that. F1 will simply collaps unless they all come under a cap that is sensible.
Do you seriously believe all those iSports and LightSpeeds can easily manage to get 40+ mil out of nowhere in times of recession? There always would be beggars.
200 million figure is sustainable for teams already there and 6.5 mil euro (proposed by FOTA) drivetrain is probably as cheap as it can be, unless you agree to really diminish the level of F1 technology.

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: So what happened to the new teams?

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WhiteBlue wrote:Islamatrons figures may be a bit inflated, but in the case of Ferrari there is little doubt that they would still be spending in excess of 150 mil US$. That is very serious money and probably 4 or 5 times what new teams will be able to spend.

I think that Ferrari do not need a budget of 300 mil US$. It is the Luca di Montezemolo's pride that stands in the way of a reconsiliation. He knows that Ferrari always got what they wanted for the last 20 years and he will not accept that it may go different this time.
I dont think they are inflated at all

How much do they pay the drivers? If any of the internet reports are close to correct Kimi got a 3 year deal for 153 mil US... that is over 50 mil a year. That doesnt even include Massa. I added it in at 50 mil US... obviously a conservative figure.

In 2008 when engines were supposedly frozen it is estimated(again internet reports) that FErrari spent 50 mil US on their engine program to get a 30 or so Hp bump over the season... i'm sure thy would spend much more being a capped team under the 2010 rules where engine costs are not counted. So again a very conservative 50 mil US.

The only point of contention may be the $100 mil in hospitality/marketing... it was a number I've heard thrown around and may actually include logistics costs like airline & shipping costs but I am not sure... regardless for a huge team like Ferrari I dont think that it is too far off base.

So ultimately Ferrari spending in excess of $275 mil US is not out of the realms of reality.

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ISLAMATRON
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timbo wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:What is the point of running a team at a 40 mil pound budget if your competitors spends 200? Nobody will do that. F1 will simply collaps unless they all come under a cap that is sensible.
Do you seriously believe all those iSports and LightSpeeds can easily manage to get 40+ mil out of nowhere in times of recession? There always would be beggars.
200 million figure is sustainable for teams already there and 6.5 mil euro (proposed by FOTA) drivetrain is probably as cheap as it can be, unless you agree to really diminish the level of F1 technology.
200 mil is not sustainable except for the 5(now that Honda are gone) manufacturers... do you want to see a 10 car grid? Many teams won championships with DFV's that were cheaper than today's engines, were they "diminished technology" in their day?
The engines have much room still for cost reduction, especially with a new engine formula on the horizon.

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