Driver styles/preferences

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747heavy
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by 747heavy » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:47 pm

raymondu999 wrote:Basically taking a late apex for the racing line, no?
Yes, I would think so
IMHO
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
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ringo
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by ringo » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:20 am

Hamilton's style is probably why his defense is so good as well. It's hard to pass someone with that straight line entry.
A guy like Button now, he's not hard to overtake with his late turn in; there's so much space in the middle. Of course drivers do adjust when defending, but it's a balance between going the fastest to increase the gap to your follower, or defending, compromising lap time but hold back any attacks.

About the late apex, i realized Vettel is adept at finding the perfect line in a tightening turn. I remember china turn1, the snail turn. Vettel's apex was very late.
He was pretty wide up to a point then he came in, he cut a lot of time in the first 3 turns.
And most of the time Vettel to me looks like a driver who would understeer the car. I don't know if he likes it, but he gets on power very early on turn exit. When he does this, the car does not oversteer, it veers outwardly to the outside rumble strip. This gives me the indication the car is setup with over stability.
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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by raymondu999 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:49 am

But he did say a while back that he didn't appreciate the less aggressive front tyres though: http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/story-136221.html

However, he does like to have stability and just understeer wide on the exit
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lolzi
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by lolzi » Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:18 pm

To me, it seems that Alonso and Kubica are very good at handling "understeery" cars/tyres - like the '05/'06 Michelins, and the '10 Bridgestones to a lesser degree.
Schumacher and Vettel seems to cope better with cars that are "oversteery", like the '09 cars/tyres (such a shame Schumi didn't get to fill in for Massa, I think he would have done massively better than he is in '10).
Alonso seems to be good at handling other characteristics, though, and Vettel has shown this season that he can as well, outqualifying Webber in a car more suited to his style than his own =D>

lolzi
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by lolzi » Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:23 pm

Oh, I forgot one thing - it also seems to me that Hamilton's strength is his ability to trail-brake - he seems to be very late on the brakes and keep them on a bit longer than most other drivers - this is only based on the onboard telemetry from the TV coverage, which doesn't show how much he is actually applying the brakes.
Schumacher seems to use his brakes more than other people - I remember reading somewhere that he used more durable brakes than his teammate once. I also noticed that in Brazil '06, overtaking Räikkonen and going into the Senna-S, he used his brakes just a tiny bit - and in turn 9 Spain '10, he also used his brakes and the throttle at the same time.

raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by raymondu999 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:21 pm

Regarding Hamilton/Schumacher actually. They've been known to be able to manhandle cars that are teeter tottery, and right on the edge of rear stability. This allows them to also feel just at home in an ill-handling car. However, I don't think they've actually been known to be adaptable, have they? Just immense skill at handling a fiery rear end?

In contrast to Alonso, I think he's very adaptable, but not quite as good at handling an ill-handling car which is just oversteering a lot? He didn't seem all too stellar in the R29 to me... sure he could handle the car, but it wasn't much that he was getting out of it.
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747heavy
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by 747heavy » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:28 pm

For people/posters with a deeper interest for the pro´s & con´s of different driving styles, where and when to use them, and why they work or don´t work, this is maybe a good read.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf

http://soliton.ae.gatech.edu/labs/dcsl/papers/sae08.pdf

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w ... tw&cad=rja

Attention !!
Their is lot´s of maths involved, so it is not a easy read for the causal fan - sorry.
:(
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

ringo
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by ringo » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:10 pm

good stuff! =D>
I'll read that in my spare time. Have to brush up on my dynamics and vibrations first.
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mariano
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by mariano » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:15 pm

Alonso: early apex, early throotle, in '05/'06 very agressive turn-in due to Renault's more rear weight than its rivals. He can tolerate some understeer, obviusly he is quicker with a neutral car. He increases steering wheel's angle while releasing the brakes.

Schumacher/Vettel/Hamilton: smooth turn-in but agressive middle of the corner (they point the car at the apex). Smooth throotle. They start the turn-in with full brakes. They like a neutral car but they can tolerate some oversteer. Rear weight.

Rosberg/Webber/Button: smooth turn-in and smooth apex. Agressive throotle. They only tolerate a neutral car. Frong weight.

Raikkonen: smooth turn-in, smooth apex and smooth thtootle. He needs the car to rotate for him (oversteer). Rear weight.

Hakkinen/Barrichello: they can brake with the right or the left leg. They brake in a right line (they don´t brake while entrying to the corner). Agressive with the throotle and the steering wheel. 50% front weight and 50% rear wheight. They toletate some oversteer.

ringo
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by ringo » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:22 pm

How about trulli?
He has the most interesting style to me. He's probably smoother than button.
His hands don't move at all!
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mariano
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by mariano » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:35 pm

It can be. I didn´t think it yet.

timbo
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by timbo » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:18 pm

mariano wrote:early apex, early throotle
How can it be possible?
By having early apex you have a bigger length of the corner ahead of you, so you can't use throttle early IMO.
It's late apex that permits early throttle, because you are on throttle before the apex.

mariano
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by mariano » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:45 am

In what driver did I say that?

Ciro Pabón
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by Ciro Pabón » Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:17 am

Alonso, you said.

Oh, my. Like if it were a question of style! Style is for Emmy Awards. Style is for Blackberry covers. This is RACING. So...

Lessons on mid/late apex for beginners, by Ciro.

NOTE: THERE ARE NO EARLY APEX CURVES UNLESS YOU WANT TO END LAST... or unless you want to read A LOT of what I wrote here.

The mid/late apex depends on:

- the radius of the curve.
- the power of your car
- the grip of your car
- the distance between curves
- the sideslope and type of transition between curves

To keep it short (yeah, I know, I speak too much: no mocking, please) and sweet, I won't delve too much into the last one, nobody listens when I explain transitions... no civil/road engineers racing here, believe me! :cry:

1. Radius

On a large radius curve you are fairly fast while taking the curve. Because you're fast at mid curve, there is no point in taking the late apex.

On a small radius turn you gain little from mid corner speed. Take Seat curve (raise your hand if you know where it is): a puny 30 m radius, and a ridiculous 100 kph or so speed. Yeah, yeah, I exaggerate, but if I don't, nobody gets enraged by my ignorance (the fools!), so they won't "correct" my post and they won't learn a thing.

Back to the point: the time you spend around a tiny corner is small. It's small enough to make this an area you should despise when looking for shorter lap times. So, you better brake early and longer, enter slower and wider into the corner, turn with all your might and quickly straighten the car for a long exit, so you can push the pedal to the metal as quickly as you can. The faster you push the right pedal, the faster you'll get out of this area. You want exit speed and you want it now!

2. The Power (with capital P) of your car

Sure, F1 has power. Not all racing cars have it. In command of a low powered car (man, I love junior karts, they truly distinguish men from children. Ha, ha, how funny I am!) you want to point to a mid apex so you can carry all your meager speed through the curve, because the puny thingie engine you have in your back won't respond on exit.

On a high powered car you look for a late apex (which means you turn hard and at the last possible moment, right when you can see the bolt heads in the barriers ;)). So, you have a loooong exit ahead of you, while your glorious engine pushes you against the back of the car and gives you the fast exit you are looking for.

3. The grip of your car

A high grip car, with slicks the size of my posts is not the same as Green Powered Dude Reload electric car with bicycle tyres, sure. So, it will give you the ability to treat tight corners as if they were corners with larger radius. Conclusion: take the mid apex.

In a low grip car what's the use of trying to carry a high mid corner speed? You under steer as hell and end up without a racing line. You use raw power (hopefully) to "straighten" the car. Use a tight late apex corner. Yeah, I know this is confusing. You have to test that. Go.

4. The distance to the next corner

If there is 20 meters to the next corner, what do you gain from exit speed? Zilch. You take mid apex, get a fast midcorner and brake in time for the next one.

Now, if there is a long, long straight after the curve, by all means, take a late apex, get all the acceleration you can on exit and laugh happily. Believe me, there will be a HUGE difference when you can accelerate early between you and the mid apex guys at the next entrance.

I would be very grateful if any racer here can give me his opinions, these are mine. There might be other factors. Theoreticians, guys, please abstain. Those claiming that John Doe is a "natural late apexer", pleeeze... if that's the case, then John Doe is an ·/&=%$hole.

BTW, a late apex requires a late brake, "into the curve", and then to move the steering wheel HARDER. Half the guys that follow racing lessons think that a late apex means you move the steering wheel less than normal. I know I'm not clear here, perhaps someone can put this in words better than I do. A late apex is this:

Freno means brake, transición means transition, aceleración means acceleration, vértice means apex and Aquí duro con este timón means Here, hard on the steering wheel
Image

You can stop reading now (if you actually arrived to this point) and skip to the next post.

However, I cannot resist to say this, for road engineers in the forum:

High superelevations and proportional, logarithmic transitions or clothoids (the "German secondary road without straights") throw away all what I've said (there are early apexes after all!) but nobody will believe me until we walk the road and you can actually "see them with your feet"

In this curves, if the spiral is at the entrance, you can actually brake (gently!) AND turn (gentlier!) at the same time. If it's at the exit (hopefully it will be at both extremes, entrance and exit), then you can accelerate and turn like if you were in straight, but you have to accelerate proportional to radius of curvature, which is changing all the time (it's a spiral, like the trajectory that a coin makes when you make it roll).

There is a trick at the exit of this curves: tap lightly the brakes while you accelerate, á lá Schumacher. This will "settle down" or "push down" your front axle and will elliminate some of your oversteering! For example, this one:

Repsol curve: the yellow part of the curve has a clothoid with superelevation proportional to the radius of curvature. You have to move the steering wheel at the same time that you squeeze the throttle. All the advices I gave previously are invalid (radius and angles are estimated by me)
Image

Circular curves with transitions on the straights, old style, like at Catalunya or old Silverstone, forces you to counter steer on the entrance. More importantly, those old curves force you to watch carefully where is the axis of rotation of the transition that the designer choose.

This rotation of the road (in the horizontal plane, try to imagine it) is critical when the distance between curves is very short and the designer was forced to "hack it" and insert the transition into the curve.

Usually, you "twist" the road in the straights, so when you reach the circular curve there is full superelevation. Not here. There is no straight between curves, so you have to twist it on the horizontal plane, while you change from a left curve to a right curve (or vice versa). We are full of those in the Third World.

In english, this means that I think nobody will understand what I'm talking about until they actually take them, OR I spend half an hour making 3D drawings in a CAD package, to show how the road twists, so, let's leave that for another post, if there is one.

Wurtz curve. There is no straight between the curves in the S. So, the change in superelevation happens inside the curves. You better go for early apex on the second curve, or so I think, as is barely discernible from the track of the cars left on the road surface (again, all the dimensions are estimated from a restitution I made, so do not trust them too much). Besides, when you start the red section, in the green part at the bottom, the road alread has full superelevation, so the road is "throwing" you towards the left while you are in a straight! The cars go from bottom to top of the image.
Image

Finally, there are a few curves where there is strong weight transfer, caused by changes in the longitudinal slope. You go from full weight in the front wheels to full over steering because the car gets horizontal (or viceversa). This forces you to early or late apex, depending.

Monaco's Loew Curve. Check the longitudinal slope. We have shallower roads crossing the Andes! You lose 27% of weight in the front wheels at the exit and the angle of attack of the wings changes during the curve (not sure about this one).
Image


747Heavy, the first paper you show use one radius for the curve. Is it some kind of elaborated joke? I did not get it at all. The second one analyzes drifting (on a bike?) to win. No comments, because either I also did not get it or those guys come from Japan. The third explains the same thing, I think.

I agree, Heavy: they are not for the "causal" fan (ha, ha! Another good one!). Burn them, I'd say.
Ciro

terribleone
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by terribleone » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:31 am

I had heard a couple of years ago that Reubens was the only one who still relied primarily on right-foot braking. Can anyone confirm this?