Driver styles/preferences

[speedsense]

Ok fine. But in a situation where it understeers on the way in to a corner, that might take away a lot of confidence from the driver as he might not feel the nose wants to go where he wants it to. So saying that understeer can be pushed harder isn't always true either. Heck, it could even increase the understeer.

Same is true of oversteer, push that harder, what happens? At least if I push on the entry with understeer, chances are I can regain the car without leaving the track. Push even harder with oversteer, well I think you get the picture

In 90% of the time, understeer is due to a lack of weight on the front end. So the driver can input several things to make the front stick, knowing full well that the front will return to understeer, if not enough is done, with an exception, if one of those things is too much rotation, he may spin the car.

Things like, heavy trail braking, touching the brake mid corner, an abrupt lift (if the throttle is on), pitching the car with the steering wheel, jacking at the throttle, applying lot's of throttle early...things are done in combination or combinations of several of them.... not to mention the least desirable one, slowing down, which is why it's left out, as not a consideration of an aggressive driver.
With OS, gentle with the steering input, overly smooth throttle application, backing out gently with throttle (to prevent running out of race track)

It is very interesting to look at the two handling problems OS vs US and the things drivers are doing to get around them. Interesting enough that US has things that are in the direction of setting faster laps. Such as aggressive early throttle and lot's of it. Later braking, due to heavy trail braking.

BTW, we are only talking slight understeer/oversteer in either case.

[speedsense]

In cars with over 200 or 300 hp all under steer (well, most under steer) comes from acceleration. Weight transfer leaves your front wheels without...well, weight. You have to squeeeeeeeeeeeze the throttle.

This condition can be "dailed" out, if you have the option to do so. Having dealt with with quite a few Trans Am cars with 800hp on a live rear axle, the condition is greatly increased. A well setup TA car is full throttle before the car is straightened out without the brakes touched or understeer on the exit, if it's setup properly. yep, it's about weight transfer.

Even in a Camaro or a Mustang, when you accelerate you are left almost without traction on frontal wheels. That's the reason why dragsters have those ridiculous thin frontal wheels: you use them very little, the weight is all in the rear.

Though dragsters only intend on going straight, the front wheels,when things go right, which isn't often, don't turn...

You must have felt it when taking a curve to the limit: at the exit, you see the edge coming towards you and you instinctively release the throttle. It's not the speed, is the lack of grip.

That's why I mentioned that some drivers tap the brakes on exit, even when accelerating, to "settle down" or "force down" the front axle a bit to diminish oversteer.

Don't you mean Understeer? Tapping the brakes on exit would make the car oversteer more. IMHO.

Same goes for braking and over steer: you brake too much, you have no grip on the rear axle. The cause is the transfer of weight.

At most racing schools this is the first lesson.

Almost the only way to counteract effectively this tendency is to get a lower car.

There are other things that can be done, lowering the car is one of many.

Of course, acceleration also causes extra torque, like this, but this is kind of secondary.

Acceleration torque: it doesn't help


The reason why in racing you want lower cars, ballast, pull rod suspensions, smaller drivers and down force is NOT to avoid the car from flopping, but to brake and accelerate in a better way in a curve.

Ciro, your not going to make any friends with tall drivers, Schumi may want to talk to you about that one...
Setting up rear diff's is an art form, to "calm" the tendency the article describes, for instance, softening the rear ramp springs in a detroit locker prevents it from coming in too harshly...

That's the reason why SUVs suck at safety: they brake poorly. You brake mostly with your front wheels, because the CG is high. The higher the car, the worse it brakes.

Next time you see the skids in an accident, notice that rear wheels do not left marks in the pavement (or they are interrupted, when the car rear axle "jumps" in short jumps when you have old ABSs).

I've never raced a car that suffers of under steer in the entrance of a curve, most cars have more weight in the front. That is, I've never racing a car with a rear engine (perhaps a VW?).
So, if your car suffers from under steer in the entrance, well, it's easy to recover confidence: brake, and you'll get all the over steer you could wish.

Absolutely...

[raymondu999]

Ok fine. But in a situation where it understeers on the way in to a corner, that might take away a lot of confidence from the driver as he might not feel the nose wants to go where he wants it to. So saying that understeer can be pushed harder isn't always true either. Heck, it could even increase the understeer.

Same is true of oversteer, push that harder, what happens? At least if I push on the entry with understeer, chances are I can regain the car without leaving the track. Push even harder with oversteer, well I think you get the picture

In 90% of the time, understeer is due to a lack of weight on the front end. So the driver can input several things to make the front stick, knowing full well that the front will return to understeer, if not enough is done, with an exception, if one of those things is too much rotation, he may spin the car.

Things like, heavy trail braking, touching the brake mid corner, an abrupt lift (if the throttle is on), pitching the car with the steering wheel, jacking at the throttle, applying lot's of throttle early...things are done in combination or combinations of several of them.... not to mention the least desirable one, slowing down, which is why it's left out, as not a consideration of an aggressive driver.
With OS, gentle with the steering input, overly smooth throttle application, backing out gently with throttle (to prevent running out of race track)

It is very interesting to look at the two handling problems OS vs US and the things drivers are doing to get around them. Interesting enough that US has things that are in the direction of setting faster laps. Such as aggressive early throttle and lot's of it. Later braking, due to heavy trail braking.

BTW, we are only talking slight understeer/oversteer in either case.

Really? I always thought a forward-biased weight distribution would cause understeer, and rearward-based would cause oversteer, due to the larger lateral accelerations required. Unless you're talking about the vertical LOAD on the tyre, which would then increase friction and hence, grip.

[speedsense]

Ok fine. But in a situation where it understeers on the way in to a corner, that might take away a lot of confidence from the driver as he might not feel the nose wants to go where he wants it to. So saying that understeer can be pushed harder isn't always true either. Heck, it could even increase the understeer.

Same is true of oversteer, push that harder, what happens? At least if I push on the entry with understeer, chances are I can regain the car without leaving the track. Push even harder with oversteer, well I think you get the picture

In 90% of the time, understeer is due to a lack of weight on the front end. So the driver can input several things to make the front stick, knowing full well that the front will return to understeer, if not enough is done, with an exception, if one of those things is too much rotation, he may spin the car.

Things like, heavy trail braking, touching the brake mid corner, an abrupt lift (if the throttle is on), pitching the car with the steering wheel, jacking at the throttle, applying lot's of throttle early...things are done in combination or combinations of several of them.... not to mention the least desirable one, slowing down, which is why it's left out, as not a consideration of an aggressive driver.
With OS, gentle with the steering input, overly smooth throttle application, backing out gently with throttle (to prevent running out of race track)

It is very interesting to look at the two handling problems OS vs US and the things drivers are doing to get around them. Interesting enough that US has things that are in the direction of setting faster laps. Such as aggressive early throttle and lot's of it. Later braking, due to heavy trail braking.

BTW, we are only talking slight understeer/oversteer in either case.

Really? I always thought a forward-biased weight distribution would cause understeer, and rearward-based would cause oversteer, due to the larger lateral accelerations required. Unless you're talking about the vertical LOAD on the tyre, which would then increase friction and hence, grip.

Why do you think this? We are discussing the natural process of transfering the existing weight of the car, we aren't moving any ballast or weight to a new location on the car, but a brief momentary shifting/transfer of weight.

ummm the things drivers do...braking, lifting of the throttle,....causes weight transfer to the front. Same is true with static weight distribution,...for instance, a car with understeer right at turn in, you could add rake,as a tuning measure..applying more weight to the front statically to reduce the understeer.. either case, more vertical weight is transfered there. Removing weight from the front of an understeering car, will cause more understeer every single time. The only time it wouldn't help is if the front is already too stiff in spring rate/roll rate, then you have a "flat" slide issue with very little "driver input cure" and no route to change it's attitude except change the setup/aero balance.

[raymondu999]

Sorry, I wasn't talking about in terms of driver. I was replying to this comment:

"In 90% of the time, understeer is due to a lack of weight on the front end. So the driver can input several things to make the front stick, knowing full well that the front will return to understeer, if not enough is done, with an exception, if one of those things is too much rotation, he may spin the car"

[speedsense]

Sorry, I wasn't talking about in terms of driver. I was replying to this comment:

"In 90% of the time, understeer is due to a lack of weight on the front end. So the driver can input several things to make the front stick, knowing full well that the front will return to understeer, if not enough is done, with an exception, if one of those things is too much rotation, he may spin the car"

My mistake, I should have said " momentary lack of weight on the front end" as the cause.
Weight shifting/transfer is in constant flux on a moving car, understeer 90% of the time, is due to weight having transfered off of the front wheels and the driver through his actions can put it back on the wheels or disrupt the other end to balance it. Or both of them.

[raymondu999]

You mean LOAD off the front wheels. Weight off the front would make the thing oversteer.

[marcush.]

loss of grip can be caused by load increase of the tyre (tyre saturated) as well as by loss of vertical load.
you could have a neutral car in one moment overworking the rears underworking the fronts and vice versa.Very unlikely this would be a constant or sustainable condition ..

[luca]

loss of grip can be caused by load increase of the tyre (tyre saturated) as well as by loss of vertical load.
you could have a neutral car in one moment overworking the rears underworking the fronts and vice versa.Very unlikely this would be a constant or sustainable condition ..

And this is what was supposedly happening on the Mercedes W01, right?

[timbo]

So, if your car suffers from under steer in the entrance, well, it's easy to recover confidence: brake, and you'll get all the over steer you could wish.

What about trail braking?
When you have already limited traction budget on fronts you may easily run out of grip by trying to steer the vehicle. That's when you have understeer on entry.

[marcush.]

loss of grip can be caused by load increase of the tyre (tyre saturated) as well as by loss of vertical load.
you could have a neutral car in one moment overworking the rears underworking the fronts and vice versa.Very unlikely this would be a constant or sustainable condition ..

And this is what was supposedly happening on the Mercedes W01, right?

errm ..it would explain the whole thing really.BUT Brawn and his boys are clever enough to know this very basic stuff so the question is :why couldn´t it be resolved?


and of course...it is very hard to explain to your driver you need to have less front wing to gain grip...when he feels the added response coming from the added downforce.In fact the drop off when increasing load is not like a stone in free fall so being over the top by quite a margin can leave you with something not really responding to camparably big change.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Chassis Stiffness marcush?

[marcush.]

W02 will give the answer.The word is they knew quite early WHY it(W01) did not work but could not change this .
Was it the nose the chassis stiffness the weight distribution maybe we will know after W02 has shown p1 capability.

[raymondu999]

Alonso: early apex, early throotle, in '05/'06 very agressive turn-in due to Renault's more rear weight than its rivals. He can tolerate some understeer, obviusly he is quicker with a neutral car. He increases steering wheel's angle while releasing the brakes.

Actually, I've noticed this about Alonso over the years. He is a very adaptable driver. He drives the car in the way that it's best driven, and not tied down to a single driving style.

Hamilton, on the other hand, I've heard being adaptable, but I don't believe this is so. He can drive a bad, oversteering car whose tail is wagging all over the place, like that 2009 dog of a McLaren (at least in the first 7 or 8 races). Indeed that was the way he drove in his rookie year anyways. But he always looks to have the same driving style. Sure, he's gone a little less tail-happy over the years, but fundamentally it's the same driving style.
I've always thought that we can only call a driver adaptable after he's driven oversteering cars, understeering cars, and good cars, and for me, he hasn't quite cut the understeering part. Until we see how he overcomes understeer, I think it's too early to label him adaptable IMHO

[speedsense]

You mean LOAD off the front wheels. Weight off the front would make the thing oversteer.

If a driver lifts off the throttle, is he moving load or transfering weight to the front by his actions? OR both?
Statically if I take rake out of a car, lessening the static front wheel weight of the front tires (on scales) by 25 lbs and thus adding 25 lbs to the rear tires, your telling me I'm going cause oversteer? Sorry but that's incorrect...