Driver styles/preferences

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timbo
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by timbo » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:41 am

Just_a_fan wrote:The McLaren had it too I think. Certainly Senna was never that bothered about his Donington win because he stated that the electronics helped so much it wasn't really that special. I think he's the only one to have held that view however! :shock:
Yes, it's possible, the history of ABS in F1 is somewhat unclear to me. But it is definite that Webber never raced in F1 with ABS. Also, he was able praised for his braking ability.

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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by raymondu999 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:02 pm

timbo wrote:Good point, though
raymondu999 wrote:I guess the field was somewhat levelled by ABS and TCS.
except for Williams in 1993 I there wasn't ever ABS in F1.
What? We had ABS as far as in 2007. Anti-locking Braking System? Traction control system?
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poolboy67
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by poolboy67 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:25 pm

raymondu999 wrote:
timbo wrote:Good point, though
raymondu999 wrote:I guess the field was somewhat levelled by ABS and TCS.
except for Williams in 1993 I there wasn't ever ABS in F1.
What? We had ABS as far as in 2007. Anti-locking Braking System? Traction control system?
no, ABS was banned in 1993 and hasn't been in f1 since. cars did have EBS (engine braking system) which basicly worked similarly to ABS but only on the rear tyres. so it's advantage wasn't really all that significant.
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SectorOne
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by SectorOne » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:01 pm

raymondu999 wrote:
timbo wrote:Good point, though
raymondu999 wrote:I guess the field was somewhat levelled by ABS and TCS.
except for Williams in 1993 I there wasn't ever ABS in F1.
What? We had ABS as far as in 2007. Anti-locking Braking System? Traction control system?
different systems, but technically abs is a traction control system.
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by jato » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:37 am

Godius wrote: What was the cause of Mark Webber his demise of speed at RBR compared to the glorious consistency of speed that Vettel showcased in both their times at RBR? I can remember that they started the first couple of seasons of pretty evenly matched, there was a great intra-team battle going on.
It wasn't so much the demise of his speed but rather Vettel's special skills revolving around the blown diffuser and how he got an edge there.

- Webber's driving style relied heavily on tires holding up because he was quicker in the higher speed stuff (acknowledged by Seb) and hence higher degradation once the Pirelli's came in. His style was also harder on the tires which is why Seb always could make his last an extra lap or two longer.
- While Webber was quicker in the higher speed stuff (hence why he was always good at places like Silverstone) Seb was better in the slower speed corners and there are always more of the slower speed ones than the higher speed corners. Seb's 'trick' with the blown diffuser was that he could rotate the rear of the car to point it the apex quicker with the knowledge in the back of his mind that the diffuser would do its job and plant the rear once he stepped on the throttle and gain the time there. This was counter-intuitive to Webber because I would think if you feel the rear is stepping out then you slow it down fractionally to stop the rear from doing so rather than putting your pedal on throttle.
- That's why you see Webber go well at high speed circuits and circuits like Singapore due to it's start/stop nature Vettel's gap is much bigger than what you would see at other tracks between the two.
- In 2010 it was close between the two until about Valencia when RB brought an electronics update that improved the blown diffuser effect, 2011 was a smashing because of the new Pirelli compounds meant Webber destroyed his rubber much quicker + blown diffuser meant it was a double whammy in terms of time vs Vettel. 2012 when dbl diffusers were cut back via regs they were again closer together but then RB found a way to mimick it about halfway through the season so Vettel again went ahead. 2013 was pretty much like 2011 with the addition of Webber already looking to leave the sport.
- 2014 the blown diffuser was removed entirely which is why Vettel could no longer use his 'trick'. Surprisingly though he couldn't make his tires last as well as Ricciardo because Vettel was suited to a tee with the previous Pirelli tires.

IMO Webber's driving style always suited the durable Bridgestones refuelling era as it meant he could go flat as quick as he wanted without worrying about the tires getting destroyed like the Pirelli era. Unfortunately for him, he got a quick car at the wrong time in terms of regulations and a top team-mate.

There was a great article by Mark Hughes did for the BBC that spelled out the effect of the Pirelli tires and regulations of the 2012 challengers and their driving styles in Hamilton/Alonso/Button/Webber/Vettel.

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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by PlatinumZealot » Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:04 pm

Singapore 2013 qualifying was enough to show me that Webber was past it. Yes he isn't as good in the slow stuff, but Anthony Davidson did a really good lap review describing how Vettel has more commitment through the corners and how Webber was playing it too safe. It was night and day the speeds Vettel was entering the corners at.
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by timbo » Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:17 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:Singapore 2013 qualifying was enough to show me that Webber was past it. Yes he isn't as good in the slow stuff, but Anthony Davidson did a really good lap review describing how Vettel has more commitment through the corners and how Webber was playing it too safe. It was night and day the speeds Vettel was entering the corners at.
Maybe. But give driver a car he's confident in and you'd see a night and day difference. Maybe it's car/tires which didn't give he what he wanted.

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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by jato » Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:27 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:Singapore 2013 qualifying was enough to show me that Webber was past it. Yes he isn't as good in the slow stuff, but Anthony Davidson did a really good lap review describing how Vettel has more commitment through the corners and how Webber was playing it too safe. It was night and day the speeds Vettel was entering the corners at.
I wouldn't call Webber past it based on one qualifying session. When you consider that Singapore is one of his least favourite tracks and is much more suited to Vettel due to the amount of slower corners, to be only 3 tenths back isn't too shabby. I think if Seb didn't have his blown diffuser there would also be less of a commitment from his side too. Given Seb's record there and Ricciardo managing to beat him last year IMO suggests that Webber would have been a lot closer this year if he had hung around on ultimate pace given the more conservative Pirelli tires + no blown diffuser.

If anything, Webber being past it IMO stood out more in the races. He still had the qualifying speed but Seb was always able to get more out of the softer tires and make them last longer (it equalized when they both went on medium tires during race stints) in the race while switching them on quicker on a qualifying lap (and 1st few laps of a race). This throughout the year is the reason why Webber never beat Seb in races last year (plus all the other issues he usually has e.g. poor starts, wrong place wrong time, mech failures) and for the most part in qualifying.

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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by raymondu999 » Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:02 am

I think it could be a question of track surface too. Webber generally performs less better when tracks are smoother. Look at Canada after resurfacing. Look at Abu Dhabi 2009, etc. He seems to suffer on certain track surfaces.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:29 am

A Lesson on wet weather driving, by Lewis Hamilton himself.

There a lot of little gems that Lewis dishes out here.... things that you can never know by just watching the races... how the driver finds grip in the wet... how to put down the power... the driving line (Nico listen up!).. and that drivers keep note books! How I would like a peak at a few pages...

"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by PlatinumZealot » Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:08 pm

Brembo engineers tell us the nuances between the champion drivers. Nice read. Anyone has the book?

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/the-r ... vs-alonso/


Ayrton Senna

To date, Brembo cannot remember a driver who has used such a high hydraulic ratio as the one used by Ayrton Senna. He was a truly sensational champion and one of the first drivers to understand the importance of the technological evolution of the brakes.

The Brazilian adored using smaller master cylinders for improved performance and increased system efficiency. Moreover he was one of the few, if not the only one, who personally tested technological development of systems – from calipers with four pads to aluminium alloys that ensured increased stiffness (and power) of the system.



Michael Schumacher

The German has been the most mentally organised racer Brembo technicians have worked with over the years: determined and consistent in his lap times. He demanded the braking system matched his performance.

Schumacher opted for a short and very responsive brake pedal. Although not a giant he was able to exert significant force on the pedal. The search for perfection was one of Schumi's greatest qualities: he wanted the brakes to work continuously without any sign of fading for the duration of the GP race.


Gilles Villeneuve

The aggressive and extreme driving of the former snowmobile racer had its impact on the braking system fitted on the Ferraris he used to drive…

The oldest Brembo technicians still remember – as a sort of nightmare – how Villeneuve knew how to abuse his brakes properly, with his extremely aggressive style.


Alain Prost

Alain Prost, one of Ayrton Senna's biggest rivals, had a very different driving and braking style compared to Senna's. He was less aggressive towards his single seater and the braking system.

His accuracy and clean style meant he did not stress the pedal. That's why the Frenchman didn't have any particular requests for Brembo engineers. He didn't want short nor particularly sturdy pedals, neither did he ever bring the system to extreme levels.

This doesn't mean Alain wasn't concerned about brakes: he would continuously ask the engineers to prepare perfect configurations and a system that would be reliable under every condition.


Sebastian Vettel

According to the Brembo technicians who worked with him to configure the braking system, Vettel is a junior Schumi because he significantly contributes towards vehicle development.

Moreover he is able to pick up the subtlest differences in friction material: currently he is the only driver competing in Formula 1 who can prefer one particular set of brakes over another due to different types of carbon.

He loves starting qualifying laps with a new set of brakes to achieve that extra grip he is able to exploit while attempting the best time for a single lap. He works in perfect harmony with his tyres and opts for a short and extremely reactive pedal. Despite not being particularly heavy built, he is able to apply significant force on the brake pedal.


Fernando Alonso

Alonso, like other champions, is extremely meticulous when it comes to finding the perfect feeling with the braking system. His explosive strength meant he can apply maximum force on the pedal with impressive response times.

His power in terms of physical strength contrasts with his very clean braking technique; he often reaches the limit without exceeding it in a wide range of grip conditions.

It is as if Alonso has been able to create a kind of natural ABS – fully exploiting tyre grip to achieve greater speeds while turning without locking the wheels.


Lewis Hamilton

The British Mercedes driver enjoys an entirely unique feeling with his car; he wants it to focus entirely on the front axle. His aggressive driving style means he often locks the wheels.

Lewis is extremely reactive when he starts to brake; he then often exceeds tyre grip limits and only then, after exerting peak pressure on the pedal, begins to control the action of the braking system.

The English driver wants perfect control when entering a corner, often releasing the throttle once in the turn. In fact, the first part of braking ends upon entering the corner, thus reducing the footprint and increasing the likelihood of the inside front wheel locking.

The only limit that Hamilton knows, according to the engineers he works with, is the maximum temperature of brakes. However, it is his way of driving beyond any physical limit that ensures a truly spectacular and result-producing racing style.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by PlatinumZealot » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:02 am

Somehow kimi has not adapted to this shining specimen of a Ferrari. He just cant seem to show the speed of his teammate in either Q or race. His tyre usage is abysmal too. It will be interesting to follow his evolution over the season.

At a reference here is James Allison's take on Kimi's driving style.
Ferrari technical director James Allison, who also worked with Raikkonen in their previous roles at Enstone, reckons the particulars of the Finn's driving style haven't meshed particularly well with the latest generation of F1 car.
"Kimi's style is quite heavy on the front tyres and gentle on the rear," Allison explains. "Given that F1 cars are, in general, rear limited, this has been one of Kimi's trump cards in the past.
"However, for Kimi to be able to exploit this advantage he needs a car/tyre combination that allows him to lean on the front axle quite heavily.
"Fernando and Kimi are both world champions and are both extremely fast drivers. If you give Kimi a car that he can work with then it is difficult to put a cigarette paper between them.

"From the outset Fernando has felt the limitations of the car most strongly at the rear, and Kimi the front. This is because, to produce the pace Fernando produces, he does comparatively less work on the entry to the corner and more on the exit
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

mertol
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by mertol » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:52 am

That's Kimi's regular performance he hasn't shown any better in years.

Wass85
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by Wass85 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:18 pm

I've always longed for an interview where a driver is asked about his strong points and his weak points regarding his driving style.

I mean what can't a certain driver replicate what his teammate can do? With today's telemetry and engineering how much do they understand about their drivers?

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Re: Driver styles/preferences

Post by BanMeToo » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:24 am

Yea it's a super interesting topic especially with frequently-changing cars and tires. Too bad we get so little on it...