Mercedes AMG Hyper Car

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humble sabot
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Re: Mercedes AMG Hyper Car

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Honestly i'd rather be proven wrong, but I feel like it's a real shame that so much of the progress and innovation over the past thirty years of aerodynamic research is not really making its way to performance cars except as glue-on knicknacks and pretentious BS like the derpy spring loaded front wings inside the fascia of the ferrari 458.

I realize for some of you the idea of a supercar+ is an excuse to say FU to efficiency, but high performance machines are exercises in ekeing out the last tenth of a percent and that to me seems to be relatively unexplored territory in road going cars. Setting the 1000kg weight goal speaks to a greater emphasis there. Road cars are not designed or engineered with weight targets that speak to the amount of material really necessary to move a couple humans around, and they aren't designed to make the most use of aerodynamic forms, but to have a form that has as wide an appeal as possible and then thrown into a wind tunnel to help meet industry standard levels of fuel efficiency. This is what excites me about these two major projects, but I feel like MB has pulled back from aero and structural innovation in favour of the boring route of promoting their AMG wing's powerplant engineering. That's boring.
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Singabule
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Re: Mercedes AMG Hyper Car

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30+ years of developing aero without road relevance at all, thats boring. Compared to 5 years of developing their mighty engine, i think it is common sense that they chose engine route than aero wise route.

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humble sabot
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Re: Mercedes AMG Hyper Car

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Aero is the most overlooked area on road cars. Fact is, aerodynamics is as relevant to the road as anywhere.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes AMG Hyper Car

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Road car aero is about drag reduction and "wind noise" reduction though. Road cars don't need downforce. Indeed downforce on road cars is potentially dangerous for a couple of obvious reasons.
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Re: Mercedes AMG Hyper Car

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:49 am
Road car aero is about drag reduction and "wind noise" reduction though. Road cars don't need downforce. Indeed downforce on road cars is potentially dangerous for a couple of obvious reasons.
I agree, but driving with 200+ km/h in a normal roads is also dangerous

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turbof1
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Re: Mercedes AMG Hyper Car

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:49 am
Road car aero is about drag reduction and "wind noise" reduction though. Road cars don't need downforce. Indeed downforce on road cars is potentially dangerous for a couple of obvious reasons.
Well, to get the car's true performance out you'd need to go to a circuit in any case. It might have active suspension so it sits higher off the ground for normal traffic.
#AeroFrodo

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Re: Mercedes AMG Hyper Car

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turbof1 wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:19 pm


Well, to get the car's true performance out you'd need to go to a circuit in any case. It might have active suspension so it sits higher off the ground for normal traffic.
You might go to a circuit, yes. But is the car fitted with adequate protection should you crash at downforce-enabled speed?
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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turbof1
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Re: Mercedes AMG Hyper Car

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:43 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:19 pm


Well, to get the car's true performance out you'd need to go to a circuit in any case. It might have active suspension so it sits higher off the ground for normal traffic.
You might go to a circuit, yes. But is the car fitted with adequate protection should you crash at downforce-enabled speed?
I highly doubt that. It's most likely build with the minimum required protection on the road. Then again, the risk is the responsibility of the driver. Going to the circuit simply takes away the risk you are for the other drivers.
#AeroFrodo

roon
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Re: Mercedes AMG Hyper Car

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:49 am
Road car aero is about drag reduction and "wind noise" reduction though. Road cars don't need downforce. Indeed downforce on road cars is potentially dangerous for a couple of obvious reasons.
Those being?

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Re: Mercedes AMG Hyper Car

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1. Downforce means much higher cornering speeds. That's why you have downforce - no other reason. On the road, higher cornering speeds will mean that drivers are unable to react to incidents on the road in front of them where, without downforce, they might.Reacting in the wrong way will cause a sudden change in downforce, see 2.below.

2. Anything that causes downforce to suddenly diminish - such as poor road surface, sudden change in ride height caused by throttle or brake application - will result in a very high speed accident.

Driving high downforce cars requires racing driver levels of skill and race track levels of run off areas and safety equipment.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Andres125sx
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Re: Mercedes AMG Hyper Car

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You forgot the two most obvious

1- Any modern car, even a modest Renault Clio, can corner much faster than allowed at any turn wich is not a 90º angle, but people who corner at those speeds is obviously seen as a crazy/reckless driver because streets are not a track, so no need to increase cornering potential even further

2- Downforce is synonim of drag, and 99.9% of people worry about fuel consumption a lot more than they do about cornering speed potential, specially because of point 1


So Downforce only has any sense on this sort of cars, wich are only an engineering showroom for people who has more money than anyone should own

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Re: Mercedes AMG Hyper Car

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:53 pm
1. Downforce means much higher cornering speeds. That's why you have downforce - no other reason. On the road, higher cornering speeds will mean that drivers are unable to react to incidents on the road in front of them where, without downforce, they might.Reacting in the wrong way will cause a sudden change in downforce, see 2.below.

2. Anything that causes downforce to suddenly diminish - such as poor road surface, sudden change in ride height caused by throttle or brake application - will result in a very high speed accident.

Driving high downforce cars requires racing driver levels of skill and race track levels of run off areas and safety equipment.
(racingcar) levels of downforce are dangerous on the road, not just the speed and the, for most mortals, the G-forces but because of the tricky way to "switch it on". Everybody who rode a Radical for instance, knows that for downforce to work you have to have a certain speed to make it work.

This means if you take a corner at 120 kph, your wheels are skidding, at 130 you crash out but at 150 you get the downforce to work and you have grip again.

a car that crashes if you go slower hasn't got a place on the public roads, it will kill.....

For braking they can develop systems with ABS so the pressure gets less when you go slower, but for corners, thats impossible.

roon
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Re: Mercedes AMG Hyper Car

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Do Mercedes HPP have the scale to provide the production power train components? It's been said they machine most of the F1-engines on site with little outsourcing. The PU looks remarkably similar to the F1 version. Or will another production line be established elsewhere?

People complain about road-relevancy in F1, but it provides the engine manufacturers another revenue source: a direct path toward selling their formula engines outside of F1. Multi-event reliable engines with fully programmable injection and ignition mean an actual F1 engine can now be installed in a supercar without much alteration beyond software code. The F1 car then serves the dual-purpose of being a powertrain development mule for supercar engines. If it can survive the rigors of multiple F1 events, it will survive the rigors of road and track use.

Renault, Ferrari and Honda have yet to take advantage of this arrangement. Maybe Merc had this in mind when having a say in crafting recent years' rulesets.

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VARIANT | one
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Re: Mercedes AMG Hyper Car

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NoDivergence wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:16 pm

The Toyota Mkiii Eagle made 10000 lbf of downforce with a flat floor and front and rear diffusers. The rear diffuser is a double diffuser, but three times the size of anything the 2009 F1 cars used. Current F1 cars must be idiotic to run S ducts as it generates very little downforce. This is like 10 times bigger volume of airflow. Don't know what you are talking about with the floor. The whole floor is low pressure and it's wetted area is generating downforce. All of the airflow under the floor is lower pressure than what's above the body. It's literally the reason why Mercedes went with a long wheelbase on the 2017 F1 car. Diffuser volume is what is important, not necessarily just the angle. Yeah, 40-45 degree AOA is optimum for downforce for a flap. The electric motors are not in hub, my mistake. But they are independent for each wheel, allowing electric torque vectoring. I'll offer you more than a beer that those mirrors do more than no benefit, but just adding drag. Their F1 car does have arrangements like this for the side mirror. I think on a track like Nordschleiffe, it'll be more like 20-30 seconds a lap faster. Around tighter tracks, 7 seconds.

The Valkyrie is not something you want to get in and out of often. Especially with a passenger. It's like trying to contort yourself into a large suitcase, sure it's human sized. But it's not ideal. Even the Ford GT is too tight for comfort. The Valkrie is even tighter

The distance of the Valkryie tunnel is signifcant from the ground. Downforce is a function of distance of the floor to the ground. There's no point of the Valkyrie floor that's as close as the Project One's
1. "Flat floor" as we know it by F1 and previous WEC regulations is NOT what the mandatory flat floor section was in the GTP and Group C rules of the time. 8) The rules stated a short section of flat floor from behind the rearward most point of the front tire to 900 mm behind it. Behind that point (around where you'd want to start your ramp anyway), it was basically open (later a 280 mm tunnel depth was mandated). The tunnels were still HUGE, not at all "double", which was just a loophole exploited and not ideal.

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2. Both volume and angle are important, as is the working plan area feeding the volume. ~14 deg is about where you'd start to see separations, most tunneled cars have a step from steeper then to shallower to the back of the car as seen above and below. The bellmouth shape ahead of the rear wheels allows the tunnels to work over a wider cross section of the floor and a much wider floor than F1 is allowed. F1 does things entirely differently because of rules. Most run an absurd amount of rake, to make the entirety of the underfloor essentially a shallow diffuser then excite it with the most aggressive kick up permitted and feasible at the diffuser itself. The extreme wheelbase (which is unregulated) gets the most out of that formula possible. No one would run this without rules. For instance, the Volkswagen I.D. R and similar unlimited hillclimb cars have essentially "GTP/Group C" tunnels, not an F1 floor.

Image

3. The Eagle Mk. III with the bi-plane rear wing setup and dive planes was 9725 lbs @ 200 mph with an L:D ratio of 4.42:1. Other cars in the era were quoted at or around 10,000 lbs, and 6.0:1+ L:D ratios were achieved.

4. The Valkyrie is running at what looks like "cruising" height or something making the tunnels look further from the road than I'm sure they are. The AMR version has the car absolutely slammed which is surely how it will work on-track.
Last edited by VARIANT | one on Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:20 am, edited 4 times in total.

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VARIANT | one
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Re: Mercedes AMG Hyper Car

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Jolle wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:41 am
This means if you take a corner at 120 kph, your wheels are skidding, at 130 you crash out but at 150 you get the downforce to work and you have grip again.
This is not true. I think this is some stupidity spread by the dumbest of the three idiots on Top Gear. Downforce raises at a square of the speed and effectively raises the Cf of the tire at the same curve. It's progressive. So long as your tires are up to temp, the point at which the car begins to oversteer or understeer is the highest speed you will achieve in that particular corner before the tire starts to slip. Most aero cars are dialed in with aero understeer, with the CoP ~3% behind the CoG.