UK to end hydrocarbon-fuelled cars in 2040

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Jolle
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Re: UK to end hydrocarbon-fuelled cars in 2040

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strad wrote:
23 Aug 2019, 20:06
Local U.S. publications and TV. Not U.K. newspapers.
BTW I don't look to any news source for "opinion". IMO that's a big problem, That being that reporters have gone from where, what, when, whom and how, to giving opinions and trying to influence us instead of informing us. :wink:
Opinion programs like Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson and Anderson Cooper?

If you get your news from local stations, I suggest you look into the Sinclair Broadcast Group, who owns many of those stations, how they appear to be more political biased then they are interested in facts and news.

I know you probably think that all main stream media is biased against what you believe, but there are some honest outlets that favour news above politics. The BBC and BBC worldwide is a good example, they offer good investigative journalism. Of course you can also get your news from the source at AP of Reuters.

this is a nice chart: https://www.adfontesmedia.com/wp-conten ... Hi-Res.jpg

Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: UK to end hydrocarbon-fuelled cars in 2040

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DChemTech wrote:
23 Aug 2019, 16:58
DChemTech wrote:
23 Aug 2019, 13:12
.... someone needs to start this. It might as well be us (after all, we also live in countries that have had the most benefit from fossil fuels in the past).
edit: I realize you were mainly referring to my part of the quote between brackets. Ok, I should not have made that maybe, because it might imply I think western countries ought to take action first - which I do not. What I meant to say is it doesn't matter who starts (hence the phrasing 'might as well be') - as long as someone starts. And there is no reason why that shouldn't be us.
the UK has reduced its carbon emissions by 44%
(and it's now on its way to 100%)

why are people going on and on about excuses for not starting ?

DChemTech
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Joined: 25 Mar 2019, 11:31
Location: Delft, NL

Re: UK to end hydrocarbon-fuelled cars in 2040

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
23 Aug 2019, 20:40
DChemTech wrote:
23 Aug 2019, 16:58
DChemTech wrote:
23 Aug 2019, 13:12
.... someone needs to start this. It might as well be us (after all, we also live in countries that have had the most benefit from fossil fuels in the past).
edit: I realize you were mainly referring to my part of the quote between brackets. Ok, I should not have made that maybe, because it might imply I think western countries ought to take action first - which I do not. What I meant to say is it doesn't matter who starts (hence the phrasing 'might as well be') - as long as someone starts. And there is no reason why that shouldn't be us.
the UK has reduced its carbon emissions by 44%
(and it's now on its way to 100%)

why are people going on and on about excuses for not starting ?
Yes, that's true, and impressive - apologies for generalizing there.

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strad
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Re: UK to end hydrocarbon-fuelled cars in 2040

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Opinion programs like Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson and Anderson Cooper
You've listed two FOX and one CNN.
I don't live to watch either but do cruise the many channels with their various biases. However I look for NEWS channels and reporters that still stick to the Where, What, When, and Who and How format and don't try to shape opinions.
Hence my distain for Chuck Todd....and all like him.
BTW: I know about Sinclair Broadcast Group, and that it is why you get the same stories and point of view from a large number of even local channels. :wink:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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RZS10
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Re: UK to end hydrocarbon-fuelled cars in 2040

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I wouldn't call dumping trash in rivers "technology that we may consider outdated" tbh

I love the word carnivore, makes eating meat sound even better than it tastes.

I firmly believe i do enough or that i'm being charged enough through a variety of eco taxes/surcharges etc - anything more (be it additional taxes or cuts to my perceived quality of life) and it's getting disproportionate - and if i read that some believe we'll have to start eating maggots and insects in a few years instead of meat in order to feed the rest of the world (a lot of who reproduce like rabbits without being able to sustain themselves) i just want off this clown world and sometimes even think we'll be better off wiped out.

I wouldn't call any public service broadcaster (since the BBC was mentioned) an impartial source of information, they're quite often very biased, especially when it comes to political discourse, or refrain from making certain information public... any outlet might have a decent piece of journalism every now and then (even clickbait garbage blogs), the most important thing is trying to verify the information that is being put forth ...

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strad
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Re: UK to end hydrocarbon-fuelled cars in 2040

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Image
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

DChemTech
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Re: UK to end hydrocarbon-fuelled cars in 2040

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RZS10 wrote:
23 Aug 2019, 22:33
I wouldn't call dumping trash in rivers "technology that we may consider outdated" tbh

I love the word carnivore, makes eating meat sound even better than it tastes.

I firmly believe i do enough or that i'm being charged enough through a variety of eco taxes/surcharges etc - anything more (be it additional taxes or cuts to my perceived quality of life) and it's getting disproportionate - and if i read that some believe we'll have to start eating maggots and insects in a few years instead of meat in order to feed the rest of the world (a lot of who reproduce like rabbits without being able to sustain themselves) i just want off this clown world and sometimes even think we'll be better off wiped out.

I wouldn't call any public service broadcaster (since the BBC was mentioned) an impartial source of information, they're quite often very biased, especially when it comes to political discourse, or refrain from making certain information public... any outlet might have a decent piece of journalism every now and then (even clickbait garbage blogs), the most important thing is trying to verify the information that is being put forth ...
You have an amazing way with twisting words. Naturally, I was not referring to the trash in rivers with outdated technology. Plastic pollution is a different topic altogether, so don't conflate it with action on emissions - although one could see some parallels between those rivers and freely using the atmosphere as a garbage dump. Apparently the visibility of said garbage is more of an issue to you than the eventual effects. And again, nobody is forcing you to eat maggots - and if they are, I would be against that, too. What we need to do is start paying a fair price for the food we consume. Which you currently don't, no matter what you belief. And if you pay that price, have your steak.

You know what the best fix for 'breeding like rabbits' is, by the way? The thing that fixed it in our countries too? Alleviation from poverty. Labor rights. Decent salaries. Point is, that will make all those products that they make for us more expensive too - so it will impact our lifestyles, anyway. And while it may reduce some of the more obvious forms of pollution (smog, plastic, anything visible will be addressed), it will only increase their CO2 emission. Unless, of course, through international treaties, we can convince them to grow solely using sustainable technology - but that will only work if we pledge to the same transformation. And then we're back to square one; your complete unwillingness to change anything to your lifestyle. No, first the people that have much less money and on average a much smaller footprint need to change in order to solve a problem for which they were even less responsible than we were, resulting from pursuing a lifestyle from which they could not benefit as much as we did. It is not about completely overhauling your lifestyle, about waiving everything. It's about being responsible for your choices, rather than transferring responsibility to next generations or blaming others for their faults to try and avoid your own.

And about 'verifying the information'... I agree. But then it must be practiced consistently.

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Andres125sx
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Re: UK to end hydrocarbon-fuelled cars in 2040

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RZS10 wrote:
23 Aug 2019, 19:59
Never thought i'd see anyone compare abolishing slavery to 'saving the environment' or 'fighting climate change' but here we are ... that's quite a hot take ... astonishing
If you read the discussion you´ll notice we were talking about why anyone should be the first to start the change when the rest of the world is not willing to join it and the decision will be costly in the short term. Abolishing slavery was just an example to show sometimes, even if it´s not worth from an economical point of view, it just must be done and someone must lead the change

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Andres125sx
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Re: UK to end hydrocarbon-fuelled cars in 2040

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About news and neutrality, I gave up a long time ago about finding any neutral media. Humans are dependant on their own experience, so all of us are partial, none is neutral. Since media is managed by humans, no media can be neutral.

What I do is reading media from different points of view, and then make my own conclusions. To me this is similar to a trial, where the judge must listen to both parts. If he rejects to listen to some part, he simply cannot be fair in his judgment, and that´s exactly what I see too often in the real world, people who don´t want to listen what the other part have to say and only read/hear what his side have to say

That self-convicing attitude is a huge problem in modern world IMHO

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RZS10
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Re: UK to end hydrocarbon-fuelled cars in 2040

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There are many many other things you could have compared it to instead of slavery though ... but giving up on it has brilliantly worked as "setting an example" for the rest of the world as strad has pointed out already viewtopic.php?p=856789#p856789 ... love how for example it has gotten clear that the world cup was bought by Qatar and despite the slave like conditions the stadiums are being build in no one seems to give a damn which is depressing.

That's a lot of assumptions DChemTech, about me and about the willingness of the third world to change in a certain way.

I'd say most prices on food are fine as they are, they're quite high actually and raising them further would, as i wrote previously, be a disproportionate financial burden.

Don't know how old y'all are but think back to before we had the euro and then translate that to the previous currency ... no one would have bought apples for 6 DM/kg (and no, the wages did not increase proportionally)

It is however silly that if you go to a supermarket then most fruit and vegetables (even seasonal that grows locally) are from the surrounding EU countries, fortunately there's still the locally grown stuff.

Unless you did not mean food in general but mainly meat and related products, in which case you should have written that - i recently read that some politicians suggested applying the full sales tax on meat (all in order to save the environment of course, not in order to flush even more money into the state treasury, i'm sure) even an actual "meat tax" wouldn't necessarily go to lowering emissions or anything since taxes here aren't bound to a specific purpose (just like the eco tax on fuel is just going to plugging the holes in the pension budget instead of the infrastructure) so you'd only end up with wishful thinking that people would buy less because it's more expensive.

There probably would be better ways to lower the impact of meat production (more biogas plants, different sources of animal food etc) but that's rather something you'd do through policy than just stupidly raising prices, but the government probably doesn't want to anger a 21 billion p.a. industry.

But either way, meat could get more expensive if it was for better conditions for the animals and for lowering the environmental impact of it for all for all i care, i don't each much of it anyways.

Don't know what else you could mean with 'paying a fair price for food', maybe only buying 'bio' products ? ... but those are mostly a scam anyways.

On the topic of food - one thing that never ceases to amaze me is when i'm at the store and see the shopping cart of certain types of people with a composition of all kinds of 'bio' products, some wannabe soy* meat replacements ... but then also a sh!tload of exotic imported fruits and those so called 'superfoods' presumably for some chia acai fruit smoothies ... god bless them ... lmao

* soy that largely comes from southern america, brazil for example, who are currently burning down the rainforest for agricultural land which is a bit ironic (and yes, i know it's also being used as animal food for meat production, i mentioned it above - but also for lifestyle soy products and even "bio fuels" =D> )

About trashriver having countries ... How many years are they back? ... decades? Centuries? I mean ... staying with 'breeding like rabbits' (and the important addition of "without being able to sustain themselves" which you left out) - when was the last time europeans did that? Having like 4 kids on average in 1900 isn't it ... so how far back ... maybe around 1800 with 5 kids on average? That puts us before the industrial revolution - thinking they'll have theirs without f*cking up the environment like our ancestors did or how India and China are doing now (the latter already starting to implement stricter environmental laws tbf) even if we lead by example of being "sustainable" is a laudable but a rather idealistic view of things.

So yea ... I fully agree with the statement that the transformation of third world countries to 'emerging markets' and those turning to "first world" ones will ultimately increase their pollution and carbon footprint but there's little our governments will be able to do about it, certainly not us by vastly changing our way of life.

And even if their economy makes a large step, they'd still do the rabbit thing because stopping it would also require large cultural changes, education and implementation of some minimal social security systems (lessening the reliance on family support) but that's another thing altogether.

They will also still need to be fed and with reaching a higher standard of living they'd also increase their consumption or demand for resources so it might ultimately not even be about "use less so the others will also use less because you led by example" and might eventually turn to "use less and lower your standard of living so that they can use more than they used before in order to catch up and achieve the same low standard of living" ... but that's just a wild guess, i admit.

Another aspect you mentioned previously was that a large part of the production from developing/third world countries is destined for western countries, i'm fully aware of that but there's not really much one can do on a personal level.

If it's resources then a lot of "green" technology needs them - so by continuing to drive my small relatively low emission car for a few more years i'm not contributing to the problem ...

Clothing? You can try to look for "fair ... " labels or buy slightly more expensive clothes in hopes that the companies which produce them abroad make sure that their suppliers adhere to the local environmental standards and you have to rely on those governments to make sure they have decent environmental standards ... In reality you end up with clothes that are made by kids in sweatshops and coloured with chemicals which are then dumped into a river because the local suppliers bribe the inspectors to look the other way - no matter if it's some designer sh!t or the cheapest garbage - only difference are the profit margins.

That's one of my main issues with the entire debate around climate change and the environmental impact of our lifestyles, i think.

We're being told to do this and that, we are supposed to pay more for things, save water, save electricity, buy diesels, no diesels are bad, buy EVs instead, go vegan, don't fly and the list goes on yet no one seems to want to hold the companies accountable who are largely responsible for most of the pollution and emissions - it would probably be possible to maintain the current prices for goods with more sustainable sources and production by just cutting the profit margins of those companies but nah ... eat maggots, peasant


Wait ... what was the topic again...uh ...UK cars 2040 something something ... :lol: ... damn the summer break can't be over too soon ...

DChemTech
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Re: UK to end hydrocarbon-fuelled cars in 2040

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On 'biological/organic' being no more than a marketing label - agree. I despise the green movements dislike for genetic modification too, by the way.

As for taxes; yes, I am talking about a CO2 levy being included in the price of meat (as well as avocados and any other foodstuff), both emissions related to the production as the transport. But, as you rightfully remark, that levy should be earmarked to offset said emissions. Essentially, the levy per ton should be as high as (1) the cost to remove said tonne from the atmosphere or (2) to offset the damage done by said tonne (whichever is lower, which will be (1)) - and be used for that purpose*. I am absolutely against a carbon tax that is subsequently invested towards other goals. The benefit of such a system is that you will move towards net. neutral without requiring absolute neutral, and you can have different technologies competing on merit** instead of top-down prescribing what means are to be used.

* with a transition period, naturally.
** there's a swath of politicians now stressing sustainable technology should be able to compete on its own, but as long as total costs of a product/tech, including externalities, are not accounted for, it's an unfair competition to begin with. Wasteful processes win as long as waste is not valued.

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Andres125sx
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Re: UK to end hydrocarbon-fuelled cars in 2040

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RZS10 wrote:
24 Aug 2019, 15:25
There are many many other things you could have compared it to instead of slavery though ... but giving up on it has brilliantly worked as "setting an example" for the rest of the world as strad has pointed out already viewtopic.php?p=856789#p856789 ... love how for example it has gotten clear that the world cup was bought by Qatar and despite the slave like conditions the stadiums are being build in no one seems to give a damn which is depressing.
So your argument is, since setting an example will never eradicate the problem completely because there will always be people who don't care, none should try to solve it even if we could reduce it drastically?

If that's your (and Strad) argument, sorry but I must strongly disagree, there will always be people with no moral doing only what is better for their personal interests, but that should never stop normal people to do what is correct and set an example for the rest

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hollus
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Re: UK to end hydrocarbon-fuelled cars in 2040

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This forum is a F1 one. And all opinions are expected to be respected. This thread is now a breeding ground for animosity between members (the frequency of the word "you" keeps increasing, meaning the focus in on beating the other side), and we all have seen this animosity being transplanted to other threads before (at least I have).

At the risk of overreacting, thread locked indefinitely.


And damn, I had a nice question where I'd love to see everyone's point of view, but the internal mod is wining this battle against the internal forum user.
Rivals, not enemies.

Locked