Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Breaking news, useful data or technical highlights or vehicles that are not meant to race. You can post commercial vehicle news or developments here.
Please post topics on racing variants in "other racing categories".
User avatar
JRindt
11
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:16 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Andres125sx wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:22 pm
I´m going to go even further and build a passivehaus. Triple glased windows, hermetic house, around 15cm isulation and a ventilator wich takes the heat of the air pumped out to warm fresh air being pumped in (can´t find the name in english)

I really think passivehaus standard or similar should be mandatory nowadays, it´s utterly absurd to build anything wich requires heating (both for economical and environmental reasons) when we can do it good enough to not need any significant heating or cooling, and quite easily btw, it´s just a 10% increase in the bill wich is paid off in less than a tenth of the lifespan
djos wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:37 pm
Trackers require significant engineering and even single axis solutions are very expensive.

The best option to produce the most Usable power across the day is to install a system with 2 arrays, one east facing and one west facing or at close to this as possible.

This will give you your own power from Sun up to sun down.

My system is a compromise like most, due to my house design and orientation, I have 1.5kW facing NE and 3.9kW facing NW.

My idea (just guessing, nothing serious) was some sort of extremelly simple system wich allows panels to be moved up and down from the back, so the front edge is always in contact with the ground, but the back one can be at height 1 or height 2 to accomodate to sun azimut in winter and summer. Tracking sun along the day is much much more complicated, as you need the complete frames to turn, but if it´s just a simple azimut adjustment, it can be done quite easily I think. But no idea what improvements would be expected

I´m construction engineer btw
AFAIK you can increase the efficiency by changing the angle that the solar panels make with the ground/ horizontal (Inclination angle). Let’s assume this angle as Beta.

For winters: Beta = phi + 15 degrees
For summers: Beta = phi — 15 degrees

Phi is the Latitude angle, which varies with the Latitude. For example, if you live at 30 degree North/ South, your latitude angle is 30 degrees.

Based on this, you can make simple adjustments on the equinoxes every year. Bear in mind that these are very simplified/ rudimentary numbers. But, I think it can help and do let me know of the results, if you’re gonna implement this :D
Last edited by JRindt on Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Greg Locock
Greg Locock
205
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:48 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Typically a tilting panel is worth about 30% output. The reason it is only that much is that the low altitude sun is not very strong.

Image

Built for the first WSC in 1987 had a tilting panel, reputedly (I'm not convinced), when GM saw this they decided to switch to GaAs cells to make sure they won. As it turns out when fully debugged, in 2007 it still would not have beaten the Sunraycer, but man would it have been close, certainly to within one unscheduled stop. Without the panel on it is very slippery, especially when we went to single rear wheel.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
101
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Some readers here may be interested in this article by Kevin Cameron,
wherein he notes certain efficiency factors, relevant to this thread.

https://www.cycleworld.com/story/bikes/ ... ight-back/
We are standing on the toes of Hobbits. So wear safety boots.

User avatar
henry
320
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

J.A.W. wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:32 am
Some readers here may be interested in this article by Kevin Cameron,
wherein he notes certain efficiency factors, relevant to this thread.

https://www.cycleworld.com/story/bikes/ ... ight-back/
It’s almost a case of improving things to make things worse. More efficient ICE might delay the point at which EVs become personally cost effective, personal as opposed to communal. IMO that’s not a good thing.

Tinkering with ICE efficiencies will not get the level of emissions of CO2 down to what is needed to stabilise the level of CO2 in the atmosphere. Not even if we got to 100% efficiency. That level of emissions is probably less than a tonne a year and will go down as the population increases.

For reference a tonne would get my diesel Golf about 4000 miles, leaving me with no CO2 budget to eat, clothe, shelter etc.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
101
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Henry, I think you are perhaps conflating a couple of different issues.

Trans-oceanic flight by electric-powered airliners is technically impossible,
but scrubbing CO2 from the skies economically, is not:

https://www.jwnenergy.com/article/2018/ ... tmosphere/
We are standing on the toes of Hobbits. So wear safety boots.

User avatar
henry
320
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

J.A.W. wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:04 am
Henry, I think you are perhaps conflating a couple of different issues.

Trans-oceanic flight by electric-powered airliners is technically impossible,
but scrubbing CO2 from the skies economically, is not:

https://www.jwnenergy.com/article/2018/ ... tmosphere/
I’ll read their paper with interest. From the summary the process uses electricity to scrub CO2 from the atmosphere and then electricity to create fuel from the captured CO2. The question arises is it better to use the electricity to create a fuel that is used at 50% efficiency at its endpoint ( as mentioned in the paper you referenced) or simply use the electricity directly.

Also from their figures it would take 40000 of their megaton plants to make world CO2 generation carbon neutral costing between 3 and 10% of world gdp to run. Ameliorating the issue of CO2 generation is an extremely non trivial task no matter how it’s achieved.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Cold Fussion
Cold Fussion
149
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:51 am

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

The point is you cannot use that direct electricity generation for passenger air travel.

User avatar
henry
320
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?l

Post

Cold Fussion wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:33 pm
The point is you cannot use that direct electricity generation for passenger air travel.
That much is obvious. But the topic at question was the developments of ICEs to improve their efficiency. The question remains whether that improvement is desireable if it delays the viability of electric vehicles.

Sequestration by direct air conversion, DAC, may be a useful tool but the sooner we reduce CO2 emissions the better because CO2 is very long lived whether in the atmosphere or dissolved into the oceans.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

User avatar
izzy
70
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?l

Post

henry wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:45 pm
That much is obvious. But the topic at question was the developments of ICEs to improve their efficiency. The question remains whether that improvement is desireable if it delays the viability of electric vehicles.
it's an interesting question but the signs are we're going electric as fast as they can make them! Everybody's releasing new EV's this year and Tesla's just become the second most valuable car maker in the world after only Toyota. Yes there'll be some people who still want or need an ICE but it's bound to take time, like even smartphones. Because electric is incredible to drive or even just be in

then charging them is a whole new world too. Solar roof tiles how awesome are they already...
Image

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
700
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Solar tiles are much more expensive (2x or 3x the cost of normal PV panels) so are unlikely to be popular. Tesla has been promising solar tiles in the UK for some time now but they've never arrived. I'd be surprised if they ever do, which is a shame because I like the look of them. The tiles are generally less efficient than the better PV panels too, which doesn't help, although they do cover the entire roof so there is some claw-back there.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
553
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?l

Post

izzy wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:55 pm
henry wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:45 pm
That much is obvious. But the topic at question was the developments of ICEs to improve their efficiency. The question remains whether that improvement is desireable if it delays the viability of electric vehicles.
it's an interesting question but the signs are we're going electric as fast as they can make them!
.....electric is incredible to drive or even just be in
.....charging them is a whole new world too. Solar roof tiles how awesome ...
good advertising .... but actually ....
charging them is mainly by burning fossil fuels turned into delivered electricity at 40% efficiency
it doesn't even matter whether EVs are the best use of the low-carbon aka renewable electricity that we haven't got

btw the UK saves carbon by burning wood for heating - increasing city particulate air pollution
though pollution generated within residences is greater but somehow not illegal
amusingly the takeup of the 7 year heavy woodburning subsidy has now stagnated (at £23 billion)
the expert scientists who invented it have been rewarded but nevertheless replaced by a further tranche of expert scientists

User avatar
izzy
70
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?l

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:18 pm
good advertising .... but actually ....
charging them is mainly by burning fossil fuels turned into delivered electricity at 40% efficiency
it doesn't even matter whether EVs are the best use of the low-carbon aka renewable electricity that we haven't got

btw the UK saves carbon by burning wood for heating - increasing city particulate air pollution
though pollution generated within residences is greater but somehow not illegal
amusingly the takeup of the 7 year heavy woodburning subsidy has now stagnated (at £23 billion)
the expert scientists who invented it have been rewarded but nevertheless replaced by a further tranche of expert scientists
it's going to be solar and wind power:
The UK Government has committed to 40GW of installed offshore capacity by 2030,[17] bringing overall UK wind capacity to over 50GW, the UK electricity demand is between 30-40GW in 2019.[18]
wikipedia
plus what people can generate for themselves. And cars can even store energy during the day and be used for your house in the evening! O:)
Image

User avatar
izzy
70
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:11 pm
Solar tiles are much more expensive (2x or 3x the cost of normal PV panels) so are unlikely to be popular. Tesla has been promising solar tiles in the UK for some time now but they've never arrived. I'd be surprised if they ever do, which is a shame because I like the look of them. The tiles are generally less efficient than the better PV panels too, which doesn't help, although they do cover the entire roof so there is some claw-back there.
other firms are making solar tiles besides Tesla, like Hantile whose photo i posted, and yes they are brand spanking new so they're going to get a lot cheaper. They are less efficient it's true, for now at least, but stick-on panels are ugly aren't they so with new builds there will be takers, especially if the government allows bigger windows with them for example (they're limited to 25% of floor area atm) or gives other incentives like they have for EV's. And they will be cool won't they, so upmarket houses will get them to go with the charger in the triple garage, and then gerdoink everyone will want them :)

User avatar
henry
320
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?l

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:18 pm
izzy wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:55 pm
henry wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:45 pm
That much is obvious. But the topic at question was the developments of ICEs to improve their efficiency. The question remains whether that improvement is desireable if it delays the viability of electric vehicles.
it's an interesting question but the signs are we're going electric as fast as they can make them!
.....electric is incredible to drive or even just be in
.....charging them is a whole new world too. Solar roof tiles how awesome ...
charging them is mainly by burning fossil fuels turned into delivered electricity at 40% efficiency
so it doesn't even matter whether EVs are the best use of the low-carbon aka renewable electricity that we haven't got

btw the UK saves carbon by burning wood - increasing city particulate air pollution
though internally-generated residential air pollution is greater but somehow not illegal
amusingly the takeup of the 7 year heavy woodburning subsidy has now stagnated
Agreed the particulate pollution from wood biomass is not good. However, the proportion of renewable from biomass is very low. We should phase it out or scrub it. Last year renewables met 31% of U.K. electric energy demand. Most renewable come from wind.

https://gridwatch.co.uk/Renewables?old=


At 40% conversion/delivery and 70% vehicle efficiency (28%) EVs are still considerably better at using carbon sources than the vast majority of ICE vehicles at around 20%.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Zynerji
Zynerji
106
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

Post

Why no Monsanto CRISPR trees that grow in such a way to consume/sequester larger amounts of CO2? :lol: